Wagons used for towing in Europe

Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann

Erik:
Tried to reply to your e-mail address, didn't work.
The Outback is great. Have put 128000 miles on mine and it has towed
Nimbus 3 and AS-H26E no problemo here in the mountainous western
states. Last weekend measured 22MPG towing the 26 at 70 MPH with the A/
C on and up and down passes on I-15. More efficient if you remove
anything (trailer, mountains, A/C, speed). But isn't that what life's
all about?
....Glider, mountains, heat, speed...
Jim

I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C about
10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny units).
Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The same
car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after 160,000km.
The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock when
I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the bi-annual
check with $150 on repair.

The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with wet
surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
wheel drive.

"Papa3" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann

On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com wrote:
I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C about
10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny units).
Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The same
car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after 160,000km.
The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock when
I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the bi-annual
check with $150 on repair.

The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with wet
surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
wheel drive.

"Papa3" wrote in message

oups.com...



Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

P3,

I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
of cars.

I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
pound rating.

Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
frame.

Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
while on business trips.

One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.

Chip F
KK jr

Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
car is 1600kg.

Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.

"chipsoars" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com wrote:
I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C
about
10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny
units).
Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The
same
car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after
160,000km.
The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock
when
I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the
bi-annual
check with $150 on repair.

The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with
wet
surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
wheel drive.

"Papa3" wrote in message

oups.com...



Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

P3,

I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
of cars.

I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
pound rating.

Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
frame.

Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
while on business trips.

One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.

Chip F
KK jr

On Aug 24, 9:01 am, "Bert Willing" bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com wrote:
Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
car is 1600kg.

Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.

"chipsoars" wrote in message

ps.com...



On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com wrote:
I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C
about
10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny
units).
Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The
same
car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after
160,000km.
The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock
when
I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the
bi-annual
check with $150 on repair.

The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with
wet
surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
wheel drive.

"Papa3" wrote in message

groups.com...

Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

P3,

I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
of cars.

I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
pound rating.

Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
frame.

Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
while on business trips.

One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.

Chip F
KK jr- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bert,

what I meant to say is that EU manufacturers may warrant for towing in
the EU, the warranty does not extend to the US. The C230 I used to
have specifically stated that towing voided the warranty, yet I saw
plenty of hitches on MB's across the pond. It doesn't seem to make a
great deal of sense.

Chip

On Aug 24, 9:01 am, "Bert Willing" bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com wrote:
Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
car is 1600kg.

Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.



That's an interesting rub. I've had the same experience in
Germany. My cousin's BMW 325 wagon had the standard gooseneck
hitch. Talking to the US BMW reps results in a blank stare.

The problem I have is that several manufacturers threaten to void the
warranty if you tow with an unapproved vehicle here. On the one
hand, I'm not overly concerned with that. On the other, if you do
happen to get unlucky and get a lemon, you could be in for a real
hassle.

The Subaru has been in the lead in my short list, but I may wait and
see whether any of the TDI engines make it back for either the early
2008 or mid-season 2008 release.

Anyone specifically towing with the BMW 3 series wagon?

Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
at low rpm's.

Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.
These cars offer best torque at low rpm and best economy if not used
for towing. I used small cars like the VW Golf TDI, Fiat Punto TD,
Peugeot Station Wagon HDI, all with 2 liter common rail turbo diesel
engines, to tow up to 1000kg braked Cobra trailers. I drove over many
passes in Switzerland, France and Italy and newer could complain and
never had an accident, even driving with 130km/h (80 miles/h) on French
highways.

These 4cyl cars make more than 40 miles/gallon without trailer and
about 30 miles/gallon with a 900kg trailer. The newest Fiat Punto
Diesel JTD tows 1000kg braked and has makes more than 58 miles/
gallon and 35 miles/gallon with the trailer on the hook. Your wife will
even love it for shopping ;-)

My philosophy
get a good braked cobra trailer
which takes care of your glider, your back and runs very stable
tow it with a economic common rail diesel car with good suspension
and spend the money you save on fuel cost flying.

Chris
CH
__________________________________________________ ___

"Papa3" wrote in message
oups.com...
That's an interesting rub. I've had the same experience in
Germany. My cousin's BMW 325 wagon had the standard gooseneck
hitch. Talking to the US BMW reps results in a blank stare.

The problem I have is that several manufacturers threaten to void the
warranty if you tow with an unapproved vehicle here. On the one
hand, I'm not overly concerned with that. On the other, if you do
happen to get unlucky and get a lemon, you could be in for a real
hassle.

The Subaru has been in the lead in my short list, but I may wait and
see whether any of the TDI engines make it back for either the early
2008 or mid-season 2008 release.

Anyone specifically towing with the BMW 3 series wagon?

The UK magazine 'What Car' published a supplement magazine
on towcars a month or so ago. They tested 50 (non
US) vehicles in the full range of sizes from Golfs
up to Range Rovers. The 'clear winner' (their words)
overall was the VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport 4motion wagon.

(kerbweight 1609kg, Max towing weight 2000kg, Max hitch
weight 85kg)

John Galloway

On Aug 24, 2:22 pm, John Galloway wrote:
The UK magazine 'What Car' published a supplement magazine
on towcars a month or so ago. They tested 50 (non
US) vehicles in the full range of sizes from Golfs
up to Range Rovers. The 'clear winner' (their words)
overall was the VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport 4motion wagon.

(kerbweight 1609kg, Max towing weight 2000kg, Max hitch
weight 85kg)

John Galloway

I currently tow with the VR6 version of the Passat 4 motion wagon.
It's a great towcar. I suspect the TDI would only make it better.
Unfortunately, I suspect there's pretty much no chance of that
configuration making it to the States.

P3