Philosophical question on owning & IFR rating

I'm a 160-hour PPL and a club member. My club is great and economical,
but availability and flexibility are becoming big drawbacks, so I'm
toying with the idea of buying a plane.

It's hard to justify on strictly financial terms because the club is
such a good deal, but how many times can you schedule a plane for a
Saturday flight, have to reschedule for Sunday because of wx but whoops,
can't because all the planes are booked for Sunday. Or even schedule a
morning flight, but because of AM fog have to postpone a couple of
hours, but still have to be back by noon because someone else has it
right after you, so you might as well not go since the fog didn't lift
till 11:00. Etc.

So I've been thinking of buying a plane for the sole purpose of
improving my availability & flexibility. Other than that I am delighed
with the club. Because of my job and other responsibilities, if I'm
going to do a significant amount of flying I'm going to need
availability and flexibility without having to plan everyhing way ahead.
Also because of that, and also because of reluctance to get into bed
financially with others, I don't think a partnership is the way to go,
though I haven't ruled it out, but for argument's sake let's say it's
ruled out.

Since this is a philosophical discussion, assume if I buy on my own I
will have to buy a VFR airplane to get a decent one that's affordable.
If I buy a VFR airplane that would rule out getting an instrument rating
because I'm obviously not going to rent airplanes for over 40 hours of
IFR training if I just bought one.

I keep putting off starting my IFR training, so while I think it would
be good to do it's clearly not something I'm burning to do.
Availability and flexiblity has something to do with putting off the IFR
training too, it took me 2 years and 80 hours to get my PPL because of
those kinds of issues and I don't want to repeat that with an IFR rating.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on having the hypothetical choice of
getting an IFR rating while continuing to rent, versus buying and
committing to being VFR-only for the forseeable future. I'm in North
Carolina, where the weather is VFR reasonably often but not so often
that it's a no-brainer like it would be in AZ or FL or some such place.

TIA

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on having the hypothetical choice of
getting an IFR rating while continuing to rent, versus buying and
committing to being VFR-only for the forseeable future. I'm in North
Carolina, where the weather is VFR reasonably often but not so often
that it's a no-brainer like it would be in AZ or FL or some such place.

Why limit your choices?

Personally, I'd buy an IFR-certified plane, with the eventual intent of
getting the instrument rating. I've done that twice, now, although I
still haven't finished up the instrument rating. I have done a fair amount
of instrument training in both planes, however -- something that would not
be possible if it were a VFR-only plane.

With an IFR platform to fly it's nice to know that I COULD get down through
the clouds, if needed. It wouldn't be legal, but at least it would
possible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on having the hypothetical choice of
getting an IFR rating while continuing to rent, versus buying and
committing to being VFR-only for the forseeable future. I'm in North
Carolina, where the weather is VFR reasonably often but not so often
that it's a no-brainer like it would be in AZ or FL or some such place.


Why limit your choices?

Cost. For example, you can get some pretty cherry VFR-only Cherokee
140's in the 20's. To get an IFR 140 in the same condition you're
looking at high 30's. At least that's what I've concluded from my
research.

My cost point may be lower than you would expect simply because my club
is such a good deal the cost has to be pretty low to justify owning IMO.

All you need to turn that VFR Cherokee 140 into an IFR plane is a $200
Pitot/Static and transponder check.
You'll be limited to the type of approaches depending on the equipment but
you can absolutely start training for your Instrument. I purchased a 1978
Warrior before I finished my private and subsequently got my instrument
rating.

Marco

"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on having the hypothetical choice of
getting an IFR rating while continuing to rent, versus buying and
committing to being VFR-only for the forseeable future. I'm in North
Carolina, where the weather is VFR reasonably often but not so often
that it's a no-brainer like it would be in AZ or FL or some such place.


Why limit your choices?

Cost. For example, you can get some pretty cherry VFR-only Cherokee
140's in the 20's. To get an IFR 140 in the same condition you're
looking at high 30's. At least that's what I've concluded from my
research.

My cost point may be lower than you would expect simply because my club
is such a good deal the cost has to be pretty low to justify owning IMO.

In article , xyzzy
wrote:

Why limit your choices?

Cost. For example, you can get some pretty cherry VFR-only Cherokee
140's in the 20's. To get an IFR 140 in the same condition you're
looking at high 30's. At least that's what I've concluded from my
research.

The value difference between a cherry cherokee 140 without much
in the way of radios and a cherry cherokee 140 with quality radios
(2 navcoms, ADF (maybe)) isn't that much. If by IFR you mean
something with DME, ADF, dual navcoms with flip-flop, IFR GPS, etc
then you'll be more in the 40's.



My cost point may be lower than you would expect simply because my club
is such a good deal the cost has to be pretty low to justify owning IMO.

you won't justify owning based on cost vs a club.


remember the rule-of-thumb: It's cheaper to let the previous owner
install the radios (not as much fun, but definitely cheaper). So,
if you think you'll eventually want a better equipped airplane
for IFR use, you are better off buying it now.



and good luck (owning is great and painful)

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

My cost point may be lower than you would expect simply because my club
is such a good deal the cost has to be pretty low to justify owning IMO.

This is fallacy #1.

You will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER financially justify owning your own
plane.

But it's still worth it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER financially justify owning your own
plane.

But it's still worth it.


Amen!
www.Rosspilot.com

Jay, Jay, Jay, (sigh)

As a midwesterner, a people not completely devoid of common sense, you are
obviously not using the right type of economics.

The following is a list of things that are much more expensive than owning
an aircraft, and can often be avoided by owning one. Of course, just like
many modern pharmaceuticals, the side affects can, in rare cases, actually
cause some of the things you were trying to avoid (or worse).

Here it is:

Divorce
Professional Counseling
Anti-Depressants
Heart Attacks
Lawyer to defend you for throttling the guy at the security checkpoint
Other stupid things you might have bought in a midlife crisis
Sailboat
Business investments that loses even more money
Gambling
Alcohol
Girlfriend
Death due to boring life
Quitting high paying profession due to boredom (ask a radiologist or similar
doctor)
Lost business opportunities due to lack of face time

and for some of the serious money earners out the
Lost time using airlines instead of having personal aircraft

I am sure there are other examples, which, if you can just keep your common
sense at bay a little, you can come up with.


Besides, it runs a close second to sex.







"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:WhRXc.72676$Fg5.60045@attbi_s53...
My cost point may be lower than you would expect simply because my club
is such a good deal the cost has to be pretty low to justify owning IMO.

This is fallacy #1.

You will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER financially justify owning your own
plane.

But it's still worth it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I am sure there are other examples, which, if you can just keep your
common
sense at bay a little, you can come up with.

Oh, I can think of dozens (hundreds?) of reasons to own your own plane. I
would not want to go back to renting.

And, in our case, a plane is an excellent business tool. We use it to visit
FBOs all over the country, delivering promotional displays and schmoozing
the FBOs about our aviation theme hotel.

But it simply can't be justified purely financially. Renting will always be
cheaper, simply because there is no risk of paying for anything beyond the
per-hour fee.

Now, of course, the original poster is comparing owning to a flying CLUB,
which (usually) does have SOME financial risk in the event of an early
engine rebuild, or something similar. In that case, owning will still be
more expensive, but perhaps not quite as dramatically so, by comparison.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:UvLXc.70718$Fg5.35984@attbi_s53...

Personally, I'd buy an IFR-certified plane, with the eventual intent of
getting the instrument rating. I've done that twice, now, although I
still haven't finished up the instrument rating.


The counter-point to Jay: If you aren't instrument rated and aren't
*really* serious about getting it, why pay for more stuff than you
need and then have to keep on paying more to maintain it? You can buy
a better VFR-only airplane with the same money, then upgrade it to IFR
or trade-up to an IFR platform when you need to.

This is a very personal choice, of course, and there are many
variables to consider for one's own situation. Jay's got a good plan
for Jay, and I simply gave up on ever getting the IFR rating and
bought into a Stearman instead... a good plan for me. :-)

-Dave Russell
8KCAB