Separation by tower

How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and landing?

I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me taking
off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off. I didn't
feel that it was any safety issue on an 8000' runway, but it struck me as
something to ask about here, especially since I was the sandwich meat in the
middle.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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If you report the departing traffic in sight, you can maintain visual
separation, and the controller can use non-standard separation. Another
option is the controller can have you both (or all) in sight, and he
can provide instructions to you to avoid a conflict.

Lynne

Wizard of Draws wrote:
How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?

I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today,
with a
plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me
taking
off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off. I
didn't
feel that it was any safety issue on an 8000' runway, but it struck
me as
something to ask about here, especially since I was the sandwich meat
in the
middle.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic=81
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic=81
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Lynne wrote:

If you report the departing traffic in sight, you can maintain visual
separation,

No. Visual separation is never used to reduce runway separation.


and the controller can use non-standard separation.

Just what might that be?


Another
option is the controller can have you both (or all) in sight, and he
can provide instructions to you to avoid a conflict.

You are thinking of separation that may be required of airborne
aircraft. He was asking about runway separation.

Wizard of Draws wrote:

How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?

Sometime last year I was purposely flying very fast on final into
Baltimore/Washington when the tower controller called me to ask that I
slow down because he needed 3,000 feet between my IFR Bonanza and the
IFR Tomahawk that just landed and was still on the runway.


--
Peter













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Peter R. wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:


How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?


Sometime last year I was purposely flying very fast on final into
Baltimore/Washington when the tower controller called me to ask that I
slow down because he needed 3,000 feet between my IFR Bonanza and the
IFR Tomahawk that just landed and was still on the runway.

3000 is correct. IFR or VFR is irrelavant.

Wizard of Draws wrote:

How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and landing?

3000 feet between singles. A single behind a twin is 4500. A twin
between a single is 4500. If anything is over 12,500 in weight then
it's 6000 feet. For landing it's the same as takeoff except that when
anything above 12,500 is involved then that aircraft can only be on the
runway by himself.



I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me taking
off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off.

The rule is you cannot start your takeoff roll until the required
separation exists. He probably hurried your clearance because of the
plane on final. Having one single chase another down the runway is
common at any busy GA airport. Being 500-700 feet short on separation
is a trivial matter.

Newps wrote:


Wizard of Draws wrote:

How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?


3000 feet between singles. A single behind a twin is 4500.

Whoops, should say 3000.

"Newps" wrote in message
...
I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me
taking
off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off.

The rule is you cannot start your takeoff roll until the required
separation exists. He probably hurried your clearance because of the
plane on final. Having one single chase another down the runway is common
at any busy GA airport. Being 500-700 feet short on separation is a
trivial matter.

My local airport can get busy at times (reasonable amounts of GA, and we
share the airfield with everything up to 767s) but we don't get a lot of
"chasing down the runway". I've had a few "land after"s, but we've got
1,850m of runway and they're no problem (and anyway, it's only an invitation
that one can decline, not an order).

I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
wheels on the runway, but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
two feet in the air. And the clearance was always of the form: "Departing
traffic is a C152 [or whatever] turning left on departure; with that traffic
in sight, cleared for take-off ...". I suspect the main thing the controller
needs to be thinking is not so much the formal separation distance, but the
consequences of two single-engine aircraft suffering an EFATO and having to
set down - the last thing you need is a runway with one small "obvious"
EFATO field at the end of it and two aircraft both heading for it at once!
In our case, if you hear the guy in front has a problem and is heading for
the "standard" bit of ground, you probably still have time to abort.

Another poster made the most important point, of course - namely that a
clearance to take off is not an order to do so. Only if you have lined up
under a "line up if able to commence immediate departure" do you have any
compulsion to get your skates on!

D.

"David Cartwright" wrote:
I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
wheels on the runway, but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
two feet in the air.

What they do at HPN sometimes is get two spam cans in position and hold at
the same time. If there's two guys ready to go, and the gap in traffic is
just right, they'll have the first guy "taxi 500 feet up the runway and
hold" as soon as landing traffic has crossed the threshold. While he's
doing that, they'll have the guy behind him taxi into position on the
numbers. When the landing traffic turns off the runway, they'll clear the
first spam can for takeoff, and as soon as he's in the air, clear the
second guy with, "maintain visual separation".

It takes a tower controller who's on the ball, and pilots who follow
instructions, but it can mean getting two guys out in a gap that would
otherwise only allow a single departure.

David Cartwright wrote:




My local airport can get busy at times (reasonable amounts of GA, and we
share the airfield with everything up to 767s) but we don't get a lot of
"chasing down the runway". I've had a few "land after"s, but we've got
1,850m of runway and they're no problem (and anyway, it's only an invitation
that one can decline, not an order).

Also remember that as soon as the plane flies off the end of the runway
the separation standard disapperars. So what was once 3000 feet goes to
zero.



I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
wheels on the runway,

Go to any big city airport. You will see jets touching down as the jet
taking off still has his mains on the runway. You will see jets getting
a takeoff clearance as the preceding jet departure is about 5000 feet
down the runway and just starting to come up off the nosewheel.


but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
two feet in the air. And the clearance was always of the form: "Departing
traffic is a C152 [or whatever] turning left on departure; with that traffic
in sight, cleared for take-off ...".

He doesn't need to say all that, that's probably why the other guy is
already 200 feet in the air, he's wasting air time. But that happens
everywhere. We have a couple guys here that when they want you to start
a turn early will actually say "when speed and altitude permit start
your crosswind." I just sit there and laugh.




I suspect the main thing the controller
needs to be thinking is not so much the formal separation distance, but the
consequences of two single-engine aircraft suffering an EFATO and having to
set down - the last thing you need is a runway with one small "obvious"
EFATO field at the end of it and two aircraft both heading for it at once!

A plane has an engine failure is an emergency situation and the rules
don't apply if we then have two on the runway. Been there, done that.


Only if you have lined up
under a "line up if able to commence immediate departure" do you have any
compulsion to get your skates on!

Man, that's cumbersome.