LS10 info

Here is a quote from the DG/LS web site...it is, in my humble opinion,
worrisome statement :

Economic aspects

Everyone knows that the approved certification of new models becomes
more and more expensive and the number of production planes will never
reach the quantities of the past.

The cost for developing the LS-10 will definitely be more than 500.000
Euros. This requires precise planning for a business like DG, to keep
the whole process at the lowest cost. This planning which we are doing
at this time will take much more time than we expected when we bought
LS.

End quote.

O'K.... the way I read this statement is, that gliders will be more and
more expensive and eventually this sport will be so expensive that only
very few and very rich people will be able to afford it. It is almost
identical to unlimited hydroplanes....during the 50's and 60's there
was a lots of boats, then we had a guy, who basically bought the sport
and in the 21st century this sport almost seized to exist. We are
flying nowadays old gliders. When I go to the glider port I see people
flying 20 and 30 + years old birds. Eventually those gliders will be
scraped. So, having said that, did anyone at this point in time thought
about what are we going to be flying 10 years from now? DG/LS is
selling gliders for $100 000 +....keep this in mind; a glider which
cost 57,000 Euros...that translates to about $70,000 US. Then you need
to buy a trailer, instruments, ship it across the Atlantic, pay your
taxes in your state. By the time you are done it is a $100,000 US + .
Do you think this kind of prices will attract new glider owners? Also,
at this time I think that SZD Bielsko gliders, LAK gliders, PW-5 and
PW-6, APIS, and some other manufacturers will not follow the
greedy/getting quickly rich/ rip you off business approach and they
will maintain the reasonable prices on the equipment they manufacture
presently. If they fall into the same category as the German
manufacturers then this, or I should say, our sport is in a danger of
extinction. With prices like that I think I'll buy me a Pitts again
and have quite a bit of fun as well. That is a price range that is
encroaching in "the good power range pricing".

wrote:
We are
flying nowadays old gliders. When I go to the glider port I see people
flying 20 and 30 + years old birds. Eventually those gliders will be
scraped. So, having said that, did anyone at this point in time thought
about what are we going to be flying 10 years from now?

In 10 years time I still hope to be flying my Open Cirrus. It will then
be 48 years old, but I can't see any reason why it should deteriorate
and be scrapped unless I break it. Admittedly I don't think it's capable
of flying a 750k in UK conditions (no water ballast), but then I'm
certainly not, even if the glider can. 500k is on, and I'll be trying
this year.

This seems to be true of nearly all the "old" glass gliders I see.

I've only been in the sport a decade, but I think from my reading that
the current "hot" ship has almost always cost substantially more than
the national average wage in a developed country, so the current prices
don't seem to have risen dramatically in real terms.

Top competition pilots and the very rich buy them, and in time they
trickle down to the rest of us.

Chris Reed wrote:

I've only been in the sport a decade, but I think from my reading that
the current "hot" ship has almost always cost substantially more than
the national average wage in a developed country, so the current prices
don't seem to have risen dramatically in real terms.

I have the original purchase records for my Mosquito (the original
owners didn't throw anything away):
$25,000 in June of 78. That's $75-$100k in 2006 dollars depending on
how you calculate inflation.
For an *almost* 40:1 ship with a tube trailer and oldtech instruments.
What's changed more is salaries of the masses, in the US at least. For
lots of reasons, average real wages have dropped for thirty years.
Schempp-Hirth and Schleicher can't influence that much. Of course,
given the economic (and potential political) status of glider pilots,
they could have some influence in growing the sport, rather indirectly.
Hmm "Vote Glider, Vote Democrat in 2008" I like it!

Shawn

All of Jacek's arguments have been made before in this forum. In a
free economy a company puts the products on the market it thinks will
sell and asks a price that has to be at cost plus margin. If other
companies feel they can do better, they'll go and try doing that.
Bashing DG for price and currency situations is doing nothing to change
the basics.
Thankfully for Jacek and others, there are those of us who want to fly
these new machines (see my raised hand?) and will trade up to them at a
much smaller differential cost than what the whole new machine would
be. Then our current gliders will refresh and rejuvenate the market
and make someone else real happy.
I encourage DG to press on with their good work and look forward to the
day when I can put my LS8-18 up for sale with a spankin' new ship on
the ocean.

Herb, J7

wrote:
Here is a quote from the DG/LS web site...it is, in my humble opinion,
worrisome statement :

Economic aspects

Everyone knows that the approved certification of new models becomes
more and more expensive and the number of production planes will never
reach the quantities of the past.

The cost for developing the LS-10 will definitely be more than 500.000
Euros. This requires precise planning for a business like DG, to keep
the whole process at the lowest cost. This planning which we are doing
at this time will take much more time than we expected when we bought
LS.

End quote.

O'K.... the way I read this statement is, that gliders will be more and
more expensive and eventually this sport will be so expensive that only
very few and very rich people will be able to afford it. It is almost
identical to unlimited hydroplanes....during the 50's and 60's there
was a lots of boats, then we had a guy, who basically bought the sport
and in the 21st century this sport almost seized to exist. We are
flying nowadays old gliders. When I go to the glider port I see people
flying 20 and 30 + years old birds. Eventually those gliders will be
scraped. So, having said that, did anyone at this point in time thought
about what are we going to be flying 10 years from now? DG/LS is
selling gliders for $100 000 +....keep this in mind; a glider which
cost 57,000 Euros...that translates to about $70,000 US. Then you need
to buy a trailer, instruments, ship it across the Atlantic, pay your
taxes in your state. By the time you are done it is a $100,000 US + .
Do you think this kind of prices will attract new glider owners? Also,
at this time I think that SZD Bielsko gliders, LAK gliders, PW-5 and
PW-6, APIS, and some other manufacturers will not follow the
greedy/getting quickly rich/ rip you off business approach and they
will maintain the reasonable prices on the equipment they manufacture
presently. If they fall into the same category as the German
manufacturers then this, or I should say, our sport is in a danger of
extinction. With prices like that I think I'll buy me a Pitts again
and have quite a bit of fun as well. That is a price range that is
encroaching in "the good power range pricing".

Gonna revert to something cheap like a Pitts, huh?

Have a look at http://www.aviataircraft.com/aircraft/s1t.htm
A new S1-S starts at $250,000.00 USD. A new Husky A1-B is over $200K. Sure,
some of these are readily available for less on the used market, but still
the new aircraft remain expensive. I'm not defending these prices, though
there are a myriad number of reasons why they ain't cheap.

bumper
Minden, NV

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here is a quote from the DG/LS web site...it is, in my humble opinion,
worrisome statement :

Economic aspects

Everyone knows that the approved certification of new models becomes
more and more expensive and the number of production planes will never
reach the quantities of the past.

The cost for developing the LS-10 will definitely be more than 500.000
Euros. This requires precise planning for a business like DG, to keep
the whole process at the lowest cost. This planning which we are doing
at this time will take much more time than we expected when we bought
LS.

End quote.

O'K.... the way I read this statement is, that gliders will be more and
more expensive and eventually this sport will be so expensive that only
very few and very rich people will be able to afford it. It is almost
identical to unlimited hydroplanes....during the 50's and 60's there
was a lots of boats, then we had a guy, who basically bought the sport
and in the 21st century this sport almost seized to exist. We are
flying nowadays old gliders. When I go to the glider port I see people
flying 20 and 30 + years old birds. Eventually those gliders will be
scraped. So, having said that, did anyone at this point in time thought
about what are we going to be flying 10 years from now? DG/LS is
selling gliders for $100 000 +....keep this in mind; a glider which
cost 57,000 Euros...that translates to about $70,000 US. Then you need
to buy a trailer, instruments, ship it across the Atlantic, pay your
taxes in your state. By the time you are done it is a $100,000 US + .
Do you think this kind of prices will attract new glider owners? Also,
at this time I think that SZD Bielsko gliders, LAK gliders, PW-5 and
PW-6, APIS, and some other manufacturers will not follow the
greedy/getting quickly rich/ rip you off business approach and they
will maintain the reasonable prices on the equipment they manufacture
presently. If they fall into the same category as the German
manufacturers then this, or I should say, our sport is in a danger of
extinction. With prices like that I think I'll buy me a Pitts again
and have quite a bit of fun as well. That is a price range that is
encroaching in "the good power range pricing".

I don`t think you`re right.

In fact, if you take a look at the inflation, gliders have become
cheaper, or equally priced compared to 1980.

So the whole problem isn`t about more expensive gliders but less glider
pilots which mean less sold, which means a larger penalty per glider
for development. Thát`s the problem.

http://www.lak-deutschland.de/lak/PD...iste1-2004.PDF

Seems considerable less that a DG, AS or SH ;-)

J. N. wrote:
I don`t think you`re right.

In fact, if you take a look at the inflation, gliders have become
cheaper, or equally priced compared to 1980.


You must be kidding, i think. I remember a time when a glider was
worth one third or one fourth the price of a house, now it is close
to the price of a house, hence a very unreasonable buy. You are saying
there are less buyers, there is a very good explanation to that.

--

Michel TALON

In fact, if you take a look at the inflation, gliders have become
cheaper, or equally priced compared to 1980.

You must be kidding, i think. I remember a time when a glider was
worth one third or one fourth the price of a house, now it is close
to the price of a house.....

Not where I live (Boston Massachusetts area). The "fixer-upper" 4 houses
from me sold for US$370K 6 months ago. The house I bought for US60K in
'79 has been appraised at approx $450K. My salary in that same time
frame has increased by a factor of 8 (same industry). From where I
stand, J.N. has it about right.

Tony V.
hppt://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

Michel Talon wrote:

J. N. wrote:
I don`t think you`re right.

In fact, if you take a look at the inflation, gliders have become
cheaper, or equally priced compared to 1980.


You must be kidding, i think. I remember a time when a glider was
worth one third or one fourth the price of a house, now it is close
to the price of a house, hence a very unreasonable buy. You are saying
there are less buyers, there is a very good explanation to that.


Funny, I recall the first time I flew a Kestrel 19 (around 1973 or '74), the
thought went through my mind that you could buy a house (albeit a
back-to-back terrace in an unfashionable part of Northern England) for what
the club paid for it. (Incidentally I now own one outright. Value is less
than a new family car).

The same house now (admittedly modernised a bit) will cost around 60% more
than the price of a new ASH-25, but in relation to salaries in the UK the
price of a new glider, from a Skylark 4 in 1962 through to a Ventus 2 today
hasn't changed that much.

This discussion comes up here from time to time, and is always confused
because it's international, and everyone's economy and currency develops at
different rates. Those who insist the game is getting more expensive
always quote two reasons:

1. Lower "real" incomes

2. Higher labour costs.

Think about it.



--
Real name is richard

Richard Brisbourne wrote:
Those who insist the game is getting more expensive
always quote two reasons:

1. Lower "real" incomes

2. Higher labour costs.

Think about it.


Very insightful. I would add the fact that "real" incomes for some categories
has declined - for example professors, engineers (*) etc. namely the one most
susceptible to practice this sport, while the manual labor cost has augmented
dramatically, and especially in Germany. So i don't see a contradiction in
your argument, only the fact it is not the income and the costs of the same
persons.

(*) i remember when i was a student, IBM offered positions with far higher
salaries they offer now, without taking into account inflation! Secondary
school teachers who were then part of the "good society" in small towns are
now fully proletarized. Even brilliant students who envisioned careers in
research now fly away. In the same time plumbers carpenters and the like will
charge you a month of your salary for a day of their work and will ensure you
wait their appearance at least two or three months.




--

Michel TALON