Yet more GPS substitution questions

Yet another GPS substitution question...

It's a given that you can't use GPS to shoot an approach labled "ADF
blah" unless it says "ADF or GPS blah", but how do the alternate
rules really work? The regs say that I have to have an approach that
I'm equipped for other than GPS at the alternate airport, like an ILS.
Am I correct in believing that if you need the GPS for DME, or to
identify missed approach holding points on the ILS, you still can't
use that as an alternate because the GPS is used in some way to
complete the approach?

Secondly, how about shooting this approach (VOR/DME 21 at Minuteman -
Stow, MA) - http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0501/05764VD21.PDF . Assuming
that I'm shooting this as a primary approach (not my alternate), and
the aircraft doesn't have DME, what can I do with this approach?
Wouldn't I technically have to fly the approach with the HSI in VOR
mode (it doesn't say VOR or GPS, it says VOR/DME, and without an
overlay the GPS is only advisory)? But the DME is based off of the
MHT VOR. If I load the procedure into the GPS and go past the 'not a
gps approach, only advisory use' warning, now my distances are going
to be based on the waypoints the system loads up - EGORE, RW21, EGORE.
Since loading the approach for non-GPS or non-overlay approaches does
come up with the "advisory only" warning, how does it work to legally
use the GPS on this approach? It's not giving me DME from MHT, it's
not even giving me DME from EGORE, it's giving me DME to RW21, a
non-five-letter name waypoint (which should be coincident to the
threshold of the runway, and thus 25.1NM from MHT), but with the
"advisory only" warning, course guidance coming from the VOR, and the
distance references coming from something other than the DME origin
for the approach, how does this approach work? I'm sure I'm missing
something here, just curious what it is.

TIA.

I haven't read all the posts, but I'll through this out there.....

Since it's not a GPS approach or even a GPS overlay on the VOR, you're not
flying to or sequencing to the waypoints on this VOR approach, you're flying
away from MHT, so that's what you need to measure useing DME or GPS.
I'd go Direct TO MHT, or make MHT the active waypoint, put the GPS in OBS
mode... tune in the 210 bearing from MHT into the GPS or your OBS so it drew
my outbound course and it would also measure my distance from MHT along that
course.... then I'd fly the VOR needle because it's a VOR approach and use
the GPS from MHT for dme.
Jim

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?

On 12 Feb 2005 20:56:18 -0800, "Doug"
wrote:

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?

I think it would depend on how you identify the missed approach
holding point. If the MHP is an NDB, you have no way of navigating to
it or holding at it. Course, in a radar environment it's unlikely
they'll tell you to go hold as published, but what happens if you have
to go missed and lose comms too?

On 12 Feb 2005 20:56:18 -0800, "Doug"
wrote:

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?


Sure.

On 12 Feb 2005 20:56:18 -0800, "Doug" wrote:

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?

You're becoming to0 dependent on your GPS :-)

There are any number of charted approaches such as you describe:

KPVC ILS RWY 7 has no marker beacons.
KPWM ILS RWY 29 has a MM, but there's no penalty for it being OTS.



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Declare emergency, fly said approach.




Doug wrote:

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?

"Doug" wrote in
ups.com:

OK, if my IFR GPS goes out (and my handheld goes out), I am down to
just my VOR/GS. No DME, no ADF, no GPS, no Marker Beacons. Am I legal
to fly an ILS? The only way I have of identifying the outer marker is
ATC radar, so certainly I would need radar coverage. So, lets say I
have radar coverage and its just a plain ILS, no DME or ADF
requirement? Legal? Safe?

The FAF is often fixed by VOR radials from other VORs, and you can
certainly use these. If you're vectored to the localizer, then the FAF
is glideslope intercept. The only necessity for the outer marker is
really to insure that you're on the main glideslope, not a false lobe,
and if you're vectored to final and intercept the GS from below, this
isn't a problem.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

On 13 Feb 2005 21:11:23 GMT, Stan Gosnell wrote:

The FAF is often fixed by VOR radials from other VORs, and you can
certainly use these. If you're vectored to the localizer, then the FAF
is glideslope intercep


If?

Vectoring doesn't change the definition of the FAF.

OK, same scenario. All I have is one VOR/GS, GPS is out of service, BUT
now, NO RADAR service!! Can I fly the ILS legally? Safely?