Blue Ridge Crash

A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. The signal the
glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving
the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the
spoilers/breaks twice.
I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were
closed on TO.
--
Roberto Waltman

This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like
to see this procedure looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with
good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the
towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I
glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. It is easy to do
and your focus distance does not change much.

Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds
like the rope or weak link broke. I don't think the rope should come
apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly
progressing.

I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers
unlocked. I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and
remarked about all the sink we were flying through!
We all make mistakes.
If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. if
the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn
the glider loose. But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a
P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High
Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro.
The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like
hell after only a few tows.
Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out
and the Dacron Rope. Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because
they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is
really bad news. Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low.
It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run
the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use
them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that?
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

On Apr 15, 3:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

On Apr 16, 2:03*am, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

Why would the answer be any different than what happens if the rope
breaks or the towplane engine quits?

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 07:03:46 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

Do you actually tow with your hand on the release?

Yes - for both aero-tow and winch and for the same reasons in both
cases: if the tip hits the ground, RELEASE. Good practise on any grass
field and standard doctrine on my club's field.

What happens at 100 feet when you hit a good bump and
accidentally release?

Hand ON the release doesn't mean "Fingers wrapped round the knob and
release cable pre-tensioned". If your fingers are straight and resting
against the knob a bump can't cause an accidental release, but curling
fingers round the knob and pulling is still instant.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. So in that case, should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:
On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:









At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:
On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:









On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike

On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:



On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike

Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
knows what's best for the rest of us. ;-P

At 09:33 15 April 2011, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the
release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF


I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I
normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one
place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident
happens too quickly to be able to grab for it, and it has never resulted
in an inadvertant release. When the accident happens it is always a badly
damaged glider, often injuries, sometimes worse.
There may be a little more time on aerotow, but personally I still hold
the release, letting go to move flaps if fitted, when I'm happy with
lateral control.
Dave