Where to get Winched?

Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch endorsement? ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?

Walt

On Jun 6, 5:38*am, Walt Connelly
wrote:
Where in the South East US of A might one go to get a winch launch
endorsement? *ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
winch launch? *What might the minimum runway length be?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

You can expect to achieve a height of a little less than half the
runway length - more if launching into a headwind. This assumes a
glider with 30:1 and a modern winch.

You might try contacting the Carolina Soaring Association.

Walt Connelly wrote:

ALSO, in general how much runway is needed for an adequate
winch launch? What might the minimum runway length be?

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.
Chris

On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. 1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. It's a very flexible launching system.

GC
Chris

If you're only getting 33% of the rope length, yours is a low
performance winch operation. If you optimize it, 45% or so is
achievable in no-wind conditions. A 10 knot wind can boost that over
50%. Again, I'm saying this is for gliders with better than 30:1 and
rope tensions equal to the weight of the glider. Below 30:1, achieved
height falls off a lot.

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC wrote:
On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.

GC







Chris

On 8/06/2012 00:37, Bill D wrote:
If you're only getting 33% of the rope length, yours is a low
performance winch operation. If you optimize it, 45% or so is
achievable in no-wind conditions. A 10 knot wind can boost that over
50%. Again, I'm saying this is for gliders with better than 30:1 and
rope tensions equal to the weight of the glider. Below 30:1, achieved
height falls off a lot.

I didn't say it was "my" operation and I don't mind your 'low
performance' putdown, Bill. I've been involved in eight different winch
operations and my judgment overall is, like Chris said - 400m from
1200m, about 1:3 is a normal nil to light wind figure. I've read
previous posts on this from you. I think your 45% minimum is optimistic
and you do winching no favours making those promises.

1. The vast majority of winch operations are hand to mouth. Old
winches launching old gliders. Most of us can't afford professional
winches costing the price of 2 Pawnees. Most winches (outside Europe)
are medium- to low-powered. About 1:3 is what they'll get. An aerotow
operation converting to a winch probably won't be a prosperous, thriving
club setting out buy a $100,000 Skylaunch.

2. The vast majority (ALL, in my experience) of winch operations are
optimistic in their claimed launch heights. "He's not a very
experienced driver". "There must be a tailwind at height". "This is
not our best launching direction". "The engine is due to be serviced".
"The wire's a bit shorter than we usually have". I've heard them all
- including (just now) "...if you optimize it...".

I believe YOUR operation will routinely achieve a little better than 1:3
but will rarely exceed 2:5.

GC

On Jun 7, 7:51*am, GC wrote:
On 7/06/2012 02:45, Chris wrote:

We in europe do winch launching as the standard procedure. Our airfield has
1200m (~4000 feet) paid out cable and we get release height of about 400m
(~1300 feet). With strong headwind we even get 600m, sometimes more. Our
club charges 4,- ? for a launch.

Yes. *Bill Daniels seems optimistic to me. *1 for 3 is about what I'd
expect with a nil to light wind.

It depends on lots of factors: engine power, pilot skills, wind direction
and strength, cable (steel or dyneema), lenght of cable, glider type... and
certainly more. The above numbers are for a double seater like ASK21, steel
cable and moderate headwind.

There have been launches with dyneema cable of 3000m length and release
heights of 1200m. This is a really cost effective way to do aerobatics.

To answer your question: I would think 3000 feet is the minimun for a
reasonable winch operation. However, I have seen fields with only 2000 feet.

The length you need is wire length - not runway length. *The ground run
for a launch is barely 100 yards. *Any more is for landing, launch
emergencies, etc. *Winches are also commonly sited well beyond the
upwind runway threshold. *It's a very flexible launching system.

GC







Chris

100 yards for acceleration is way too long. A 1G acceleration will
get a glider to 40 knots liftoff speed in 71 feet.

I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 12:26:55 PM UTC-4, soartech wrote:
I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

We have not experienced this at PGC, however, we do not have SSA insurance. I suspect that the carrier's knowledge--or should I say lack of knowledge--may have a lot to do with this.

Skip

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:26:55 AM UTC-6, soartech wrote:
I have read that the insurance is much higher for winch operations.
Anyone have a comment or tips on reducing this?

Winch liability insurance was split off from premises liability under the SSA plan. Winch hull insurance is also a separate product. The advantage is that the 3rd party liability now allows operation away from home base. So yes, it did increase the fixed cost of operating a winch and included a restriction against using steel wire or steel wire rope.