Ever stuck your neck out too far? And got away with it?

In a previous Monday morning quarterback argument:

"He abdicated complete personal responsibility for any kind of
contingency plan or consideration of how he was going to get back with
limited fuel."

Bruce Hamilton

And what the hell else do you expect them to say????

Jerry:
You have stretched this about as far as possible. Your logic is flawed and
you are coming across as just plane silly.
Jimmy


Pac sez:

Well Guys, I think Jerry actually has a valid point. Government
agencies frequently dig in their heels when a public acusation of
unreasonablness is levied at them. Ever been over a pole? I bet only
one percent of the readers here have.

Infrequently, Polar track flights would have to venture that far North
due to congestion. But comming from Frankfurt, Sonderstrom and Bodo
FIR's would not allow you to proceed into the Polar track system (PTS)
unless you had broke into busy HF well prior to approaching the PTS
gateway and patiently waited for that essential clearance. Poor
planning or Sunspot activity? Tough situation. The Europe H/Lchart
stated in boldface you were to not to proceed past that point without
that clearance.(means: go into holding and burn up your fuel reserve.)
We kept trucking one day without it, (too heavy, no gas
to screw around with) and were told 80 miles into the Polar track,
when we finally raised them, that we were head-to-head with a
Northwest 74 out of PANC at that future altitude. We had to stay at
280 and 290 most of the way and landed with iffy fuel in Anc! We were
not popular! But luckily, they didn't turn us in. Poor planning?
Irresponsible? Yes, I guess it was. Next time I'll hire a fortune
teller to predict those sunspots and ship in 200,000 pounds of fuel
inside the arctic cirle somewhere! ;-)

The "Asia direct" flying (as it was called) was challenging but fun.
Many flights started over 800,000 lbs. Diverting into any old
slippery field under 10,000 feet long risked running off the end.

And if you turn back every time something goes wrong with the
government system, you'll just never get anywhere.

No, I say Jon Johanson did all right. Buy that man a Foster's!

happy holidays,

pacplyer

(Ever venture too far in your airplane?)

(pacplyer) wrote in message . com...
In a previous Monday morning quarterback argument:

"He abdicated complete personal responsibility for any kind of
contingency plan or consideration of how he was going to get back with
limited fuel."

Bruce Hamilton

And what the hell else do you expect them to say????

Jerry:
You have stretched this about as far as possible. Your logic is flawed and
you are coming across as just plane silly.
Jimmy


Pac sez:

Well Guys, I think Jerry actually has a valid point. Government
agencies frequently dig in their heels when a public acusation of
unreasonablness is levied at them. Ever been over a pole? I bet only
one percent of the readers here have.

Without going thru the rest of your interesting and poignant post, I
completely agree with you. I don't know how many times I have poked
outside the envelope because of conditions that I couldn't control.
Those who are quick to point a finger and say "you should do this, or
that..." are not very well adapted to aviation. Yeh yeh I
know...regulations are there to protect you etc, etc. Well, I've been
flying over 40 years now and have been places that books are written
about and I'd have never been there if I always followed the rules.
And, the people who follow have the advantage of my having gone first
to plot the way. I think the same of those who I have followed and am
always amazed and humbled when I see what they did.
I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the whole
way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I can
under trying conditions.
Doing what the rest work from after we push the envelope and see how
far we can go.
No So Shy & Bashful with 21,000+ hours and still not done......


Infrequently, Polar track flights would have to venture that far North
due to congestion. But comming from Frankfurt, Sonderstrom and Bodo
FIR's would not allow you to proceed into the Polar track system (PTS)
unless you had broke into busy HF well prior to approaching the PTS
gateway and patiently waited for that essential clearance. Poor
planning or Sunspot activity? Tough situation. The Europe H/Lchart
stated in boldface you were to not to proceed past that point without
that clearance.(means: go into holding and burn up your fuel reserve.)
We kept trucking one day without it, (too heavy, no gas
to screw around with) and were told 80 miles into the Polar track,
when we finally raised them, that we were head-to-head with a
Northwest 74 out of PANC at that future altitude. We had to stay at
280 and 290 most of the way and landed with iffy fuel in Anc! We were
not popular! But luckily, they didn't turn us in. Poor planning?
Irresponsible? Yes, I guess it was. Next time I'll hire a fortune
teller to predict those sunspots and ship in 200,000 pounds of fuel
inside the arctic cirle somewhere! ;-)

The "Asia direct" flying (as it was called) was challenging but fun.
Many flights started over 800,000 lbs. Diverting into any old
slippery field under 10,000 feet long risked running off the end.

And if you turn back every time something goes wrong with the
government system, you'll just never get anywhere.

No, I say Jon Johanson did all right. Buy that man a Foster's!

happy holidays,

pacplyer

(Ever venture too far in your airplane?)

I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the whole
way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I can
under trying conditions.
Doing what the rest work from after we push the envelope and see how


buddy you sound like a daredevil thrill seeking idiot
you may get a buzz trying to be a man flying aboout on near empty tanks ...
intelligent people know better

On 30 Dec 2003 09:49 AM, HiM posted the
following:


I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the
whole way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I
can under trying conditions. Doing what the rest work from after we
push the envelope and see how


buddy you sound like a daredevil thrill seeking idiot
you may get a buzz trying to be a man flying aboout on near empty
tanks ... intelligent people know better

Your email address says it all.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

On 30 Dec 2003 20:48:24 GMT, Del Rawlins
wrote:

On 30 Dec 2003 09:49 AM, HiM posted the
following:


I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the
whole way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I
can under trying conditions. Doing what the rest work from after we
push the envelope and see how


buddy you sound like a daredevil thrill seeking idiot
you may get a buzz trying to be a man flying aboout on near empty
tanks ... intelligent people know better

Your email address says it all.

It's a rare pilot who hasn't had the weather change unexpectedly, or
something fail at a very inopportune time if they've been flying for a
while. I'm paranoid about fuel so it's unlikely I'll ever run out,
but OTOH **** happens. I carry enough gas to make a 300 to 400 mile
detour is necessary.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com



----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

"HiM" wrote in message ...
I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the whole
way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I can
under trying conditions.
Doing what the rest work from after we push the envelope and see how


buddy you sound like a daredevil thrill seeking idiot
you may get a buzz trying to be a man flying aboout on near empty tanks ...
intelligent people know better

I don't think you fly for a living do you? One of the most daredevil
thrillseeking pilots I know of came from your part of the world. We
called him "Dave the Brave" and watched him take off while the rest of
us waited for the fog to lift above 200'in Egypt. Dave was killed in
Cambodia or someplace like that when a blade came off the russian
helicopter he was flying. The reposts I got were that 3 died in that
accident.
Do you suppose the books are or were written by people who never got
above 40mph in an automobile? As I recall there were those who said
going that fast would suck the air right out of your lungs and you'd
die. No, I am not an idiot and resent the implication. I don't get a
buzz flying on near empty tanks. Frankly it scares the crap out of me
but I'm not restricted to flying from concrete from point A-B and
having someone wipe my nose at each stop.
I don't think my ratings and experience indicate a lack of
intelligence, but the opposite.
Ol Shy & Bashful

No, I am not an idiot and resent the implication. I don't get a
buzz flying on near empty tanks.

ONLY an idiot lifts a plane off the ground with a flight plan that will run
him short of fuel

Sir .. you are an idiot by your own admission

"HiM" wrote ,snip

ONLY an idiot lifts a plane off the ground with a flight plan that will run
him short of fuel
"HiM" wrote ,snip

HiM, I don't dispute how you state the obvious here. Common sense
says this guy Selwaykid is not a commercial pilot with his kind of
attitude.

But you are actually wrong about this. Polar flights out of Anchorage
with some operators use an FAA exemption to take off with inadequate
fuel for the real intended destination. It's called re-release. It
is perfectly legal, and standard practice to dept for instance: out of
Anchorage, Alaska to London Heathrow (LHR) with fuel that will
knowingly not get you there with FAR121 required int'l reserves.
Though somewhat controversial, this procedure makes the airline money
because they can haul more freight instead of gas. How it works is
that we file a fake flight plan with the FAA that lists Preswick,
Scotland as our destination and then at the computed "re-release"
waypoint the seven tanks on the 747 are totaled up by the flight
engineer and then the F/O compares this number say 107,500 lbs of fuel
to the min 105,300 lbs on the flight plan for re-release. Looking at
weather, the Captain makes his decision. We then are legal to call up
ATC and refile a new flight plan to what was really our intended
destination all along: LHR. If we have say only 104,000, it's now
"assholes and elbows" for us to pull out the new flight plans,
reprogram the three INS's, get more weather for Preswick, break out
and brief the new arrival charts and plates, and mentally prepare for
a long duty day (extra leg to get there.) Last time I did this was
summer 1989. In cruise the sun stayed up all day and all night (just
kind of wobbled around toward the horizon.)

pacplyer

(hope my vulgar cargo language does not offend BYB. It is less than
professional, but that's how we talk in the airplane.)

I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the whole
way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I can
under trying conditions.


I'd have to assume this is military or life-and-death missions. If not, I'd
question your risk/reward equation.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

I don't even bother thinking of the many times when I landed with
either a helicopter or airplane on fumes and sweating it out the whole
way. Stupid? Nope... just a professional working the best way I can
under trying conditions.


I'd have to assume this is military or life-and-death missions. If not, I'd
question your risk/reward equation.


Don't you guys recall the scene in "And Justice For All", where Jack Warden
takes Al Pacino for a helicopter ride? This stuff happens all the time. G




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