Glider crow-hops:

I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.

I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker

At 12:47 23 August 2012, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat
trainer.
=
I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to
be allowed
=
by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-
performance sailplane
t=
hat I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by
advanced solo
=
students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.
=20
I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the
years,
some=
of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of
crow-hops in
t=
hem before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped
me get used
t=
o the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some
experience in
tak=
eoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds,
before
taking=
on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the
particular
gl=
ider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly
it first
t=
o advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea
before my
a=
ctual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000'
runway,
ac=
celerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the
glider, getting
no=
more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on
the
air-brake=
s, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a
driver who
know=
s about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker


I'm a low hours solo pilot too, so my advice is limited (and
caveated) but:
1. Read the aircraft's manual;
2. Post again stating the glider type so that pilots with
experience in it can give you good advice;
3. Fiddling with the airbrakes near the ground when new on type
is not a very good idea and could lead to more excitement than
you'd probably want...

On 8/23/2012 8:47 AM, J-Soar wrote:
Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

An FAA technicality comes quickly to mind. That's a ground launch, a
different launch method than what you are trained for.

Vaughn

On Aug 23, 7:47*am, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer.. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.

I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker


Did you ask your local instructors about this idea? Or did they tell
you it was a terrible idea already so you're asking for a second
opinion?

Near the ground is a lot more dangerous than way up high. It's not
like there's a shallow end or anything when you're flying! Most first
flights are done by taking a high tow in still air, working out how
the glider flies a long way from anything hard, and then doing a
proper pattern to land.

Find somewhere an instructor familiar with the flying characteristics
of this glider. Find an instructor who is good at helping people to
make transitions. Instructors have a lot of experience with how to
make transitions, even to gliders they don't know much about. That you
are asking this question at all suggests you aren't talking to
instructors. Read the "transition to new gliders" section of textbooks
or manuals. They all suggest the right procedure and syllabus which
your instructor will follow. Crow hops aren't on it.

Soaring is a social and organized sport. The build it yourself, figure
out how to fly it on your own culture of some kinds of powered
ultralights is not how we do things. We have lots of good instructors
and work with them when taking new steps. They can pass on lots of
hard-won experience so you don't have to figure out a good transition
plan on your own.

John Cochrane

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:47:34 AM UTC-6, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer.. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.



I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.



My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.



So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.



Any thoughts or comments about this idea?



Thanks in advance,

Jerry Booker

I'll differ somewhat from the others and say what you describe as "crow hops" is a workable idea. Auto towing to lift-off speed and releasing for an immediate flare and touchdown is often used as a way to "feel out" an experimental glider. It gives the pilot a chance to explore critical takeoff and landing behavior at minimum energy in case something goes wrong. It's the glider equivalent of "taxi tests".

If I were your instructor, I'd approve it.

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

"Brad" wrote in message
...

On Aug 23, 7:41 am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an
instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There
are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think.
Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.


http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/HP14-ft.html

Been there, done that!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

On Aug 23, 11:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

Dick gave specific admonishments to low time pilots not to do their
own test flying. Great advice, imo.

-Evan / T8

On Aug 23, 10:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

So, let's clarify. "Crow hops" are commonly done by very experienced
pilots, acting as test pilots for new designs or homebuilt aircraft.
They are doing crow hops to establish if the glider is airworthy and
controllable, and following a detailed plan. Most recently, Dick
Butler and Concordia.

"Crow hops" are not advised as a way for pilots to make a transition
to different aircraft types, especially for newer and less experienced
pilots.

The OP didn't tell us what kind of glider he had bought before
starting flying lessons, only that nobody he knew had any flight
experience in type. And he had previous building experience. This
starts to smell of new pilot AND untested glider, a homebuilt or old
project that has been sitting around for many years whose
airworthiness is in question. Needless to say that is a deadly
combination.

John Cochrane