Position and Hold at uncontrolled field

I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.

Is this a new training technique to get students ready for controlled
fields? Most everybody has a radio at my home field but I fly into
fields where many pilots don't have or don't use their radio.

Dave
68 7ECA

dave wrote:
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.
Is this a new training technique to get students ready for controlled
fields? Most everybody has a radio at my home field but I fly into
fields where many pilots don't have or don't use their radio.
Dave
68 7ECA

At an uncontrolled field, you do a 360 and check the airspace before
taking the active.

It is not a new technique; people have been doing it for years. Most
instructors discourage it for the reasons you mention, but there is nothing
illegal about it. There was an enormously long thread about it last year.
Maybe the guy normally flies out of a towered airport and just doesn't know
any better.

Surprising things can happen even at towered airports. Uncontrolled fields
sometimes look like you are flying into a hive of bees. Aircraft flying
instrument approaches can come in from any direction and circle to land at
below pattern altitude. Helicopters may be flying in the opposite pattern.
Almost anybody can be using almost any pattern entry. Airplanes can be using
opposite runways simultaneously. Ultralights fly their own pattern. And
radios -- hah! If the guy is making position calls at all (if he even *has*
radios) he is likely as not broadcasting on the frequency of the airfield he
departed from and annoying the heck out of the tower there. All of it is
legal, or just common human error, a lot of it is required, and just about
anything can happen.

Pilots can holler all they want about that *$()% who just did something they
didn't like, but that's too bad. Nine times out of ten you find that it is
the guy who thinks he was wronged that needs to apologize to somebody.

Keep a sharp eye out and don't assume that everybody follows the same rules
that you do.

"C J Campbell" writes:

radios -- hah! If the guy is making position calls at all (if he even *has*
radios) he is likely as not broadcasting on the frequency of the airfield he
departed from and annoying the heck out of the tower there.

Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."

Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."

and by the time they get through all that.. I've entered the pattern on the
opposite side to a parallel runway.. and landed and cleared.. without a
word...

BECAUSE I COULD NOT GET A WORD IN BETWEEN ALL OF HIS RADIO CALLS AND
EVERYONE ELSE IN HIS PATTERN FOLLOWING HIS ****POOR EXAMPLE

"Glider tow clear, 20L"

Oh, and the local flight school uses the same CTAF freq to broadcast their
training positions and altitudes over a near by dry (right now wet) lake
bed.. it is within 5 miles of the airport, but outside the traffic pattern..
and then all the other "transient" calls made by pilots flying the highway..
IFR (I follow roads) well above the traffic pattern altitude...

but they know or do not know that there are gliders in the area.. its to
early in the day for lift to go that high... 50% of which don't carry
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

Jumpers are a major problem... The jump plane is talking to ATC until close
to unloading, then switches to Unicom and makes a quick, " . . . jumpers in
two minutes", BLIND CALL, that is almost always stepped on... The next call
is ". . . . jumpers away", also done in a hurry and in the blind...
Then, when I realize that 'maybe' I heard the word jumpers in amongst all
the squeals, I call for the jump plane to repeat, but he has turned down the
volume so he can bull**** with the jumpers, or he has gone back to ATC...
So, now 'maybe' I have uncontrolled bombs coming down from above, where I
can't see well, and if I roll into a tight 360 away from the pattern what
about the nordo out there in the haze not expecting me to do that... After
40 years of operating my airplanes out of a field with jumpers, I gotta tell
ya it got really old a long time ago...
denny



"BTIZ" wrote in message
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd
shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

In article ,
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:

Jumpers are a major problem... The jump plane is talking to ATC until close
to unloading, then switches to Unicom and makes a quick, " . . . jumpers in
two minutes", BLIND CALL, that is almost always stepped on... The next call
is ". . . . jumpers away", also done in a hurry and in the blind...

Do you want the jump pilot to personally call you? A blind call is all
he can do. I admit tho, some guys took speaking lessons from JFK and
really do need to slow down and be understood.

Then, when I realize that 'maybe' I heard the word jumpers in amongst all
the squeals, I call for the jump plane to repeat, but he has turned down the
volume so he can bull**** with the jumpers, or he has gone back to ATC...

You're at pattern altitude and hearing radio calls from people fairly
close in. The jump pilot is at 10-12K hearing radio calls from 1/2 way
around the world. G You wanna talk squeal? The pilot simply may not
be able to hear your call due to other radio traffic stepping on you.
(Jumpers don't have radios so the pilot probably isn't BSing with them.
G)

So, now 'maybe' I have uncontrolled bombs coming down from above, where I
can't see well, and if I roll into a tight 360 away from the pattern what
about the nordo out there in the haze not expecting me to do that...

The jumpers will be open usually no lower than 1800 AGL unless they have
a problem. Are they opening on the downwind? Or over the runway? Talk
to the jump operation, maybe something can be worked out to ease your
concerns. I've been hauling jumpers quite a while, there are idiot jump
pilots just as there are idiot pilots in all aspects of aviation. The
only "problems" I've encountered with other pilots have been people
who've made incorrect assumptions about skydivers, skydiving and jump
pilots. Skydivers don't want to die anymore than any other person. We
also realize that we suffer from "bad PR" and the vast majority work to
correct that.

After 40 years of operating my airplanes out of a field with jumpers, I gotta tell
ya it got really old a long time ago...

You should go make a jump. G

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Hmm.. gliders, uncontrolled field and meatbombs over a dry lake.. sure
sounds like Boulder City, Nevada...

Dave

BTIZ wrote:
Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."


and by the time they get through all that.. I've entered the pattern on the
opposite side to a parallel runway.. and landed and cleared.. without a
word...

BECAUSE I COULD NOT GET A WORD IN BETWEEN ALL OF HIS RADIO CALLS AND
EVERYONE ELSE IN HIS PATTERN FOLLOWING HIS ****POOR EXAMPLE

"Glider tow clear, 20L"

Oh, and the local flight school uses the same CTAF freq to broadcast their
training positions and altitudes over a near by dry (right now wet) lake
bed.. it is within 5 miles of the airport, but outside the traffic pattern..
and then all the other "transient" calls made by pilots flying the highway..
IFR (I follow roads) well above the traffic pattern altitude...

but they know or do not know that there are gliders in the area.. its to
early in the day for lift to go that high... 50% of which don't carry
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

Is there a nice way for you to point out that 123.3 is designated for flight
school use?

Bob Gardner

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:NeA_b.6214$aZ3.5471@fed1read04...
Or calling departure, liftoff, crosswind, turning downwind, downwind
abeam the numbers, base, final, over the threshold, leaving the
runway, clear the runway, ...

And always like this:

"Uh, um, Podunk Traffic, aahhhh...Cessna...Cessna November One Two
Three Four Pa-pa uhhhh Victor aaahhh....turning...downwind....uuhhhh,
Podunk uhhh Airport. I mean Traffic."

and by the time they get through all that.. I've entered the pattern on
the
opposite side to a parallel runway.. and landed and cleared.. without a
word...

BECAUSE I COULD NOT GET A WORD IN BETWEEN ALL OF HIS RADIO CALLS AND
EVERYONE ELSE IN HIS PATTERN FOLLOWING HIS ****POOR EXAMPLE

"Glider tow clear, 20L"

Oh, and the local flight school uses the same CTAF freq to broadcast their
training positions and altitudes over a near by dry (right now wet) lake
bed.. it is within 5 miles of the airport, but outside the traffic
pattern..
and then all the other "transient" calls made by pilots flying the
highway..
IFR (I follow roads) well above the traffic pattern altitude...

but they know or do not know that there are gliders in the area.. its to
early in the day for lift to go that high... 50% of which don't carry
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd
shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

Bob Gardner wrote:
Is there a nice way for you to point out that 123.3 is designated for flight
school use?

If, IF... the ground station is licensed for that frequency.
Please note that ground stations are licensed for a specific
location and frequency. Really... our license on the wall
(posted per the FCC rules) licenses us for 123.3. The nearby
flight school uses the frequency for chit-chat... when they
SHOULD be using 122.9, 122.75 or 122.85.

Please note that 123.45 is NOT an air to air frequency. :-)
It is attached to the baggage handlers at KORD.


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!