Using thermals to climb?

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

In article , Kees Mies
wrote:

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?

Absolutely not.

If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

I don't go looking for them, but when I feel them, I use them. I start
a tight circle until I feel it give out.

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

Soaring pilots will tell you to look for plowed fields, clouds,
anyplace the ground will be warmer than its surroundings.

Kees,

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?


It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
stay on the ground. Also, I take it you are leaning properly AT FULL
POWER in those high density altitude situations to get the most out of
your engine?

That said, just wait until you feel (and possibly see on the VSI) a
strong updraft, then start tight turns, preferably to the side were the
updraft lifted one of your wings (that's were it will be stronger). The
goal here is to circle the center of the updraft. Anything below 25 to
30 degrees bank will probably result in circles that are too wide. You
should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Stay safe!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

I don't think he's talking about shutting the engine off. With the engine
running, a C150 has a MUCH better glide ratio than that of a glider. Flying
in a rising thermal will only improve things.

Pete

It isn't the glide ratio that one is concerned with in thermals - rather the
minimum sink rate and the speed for minimum sink.

Usually thermals are fairly localized and glider pilots work a lot to stay
in them. Turns are routinely done by banking between 30 and 60 degrees at
slow relatively slow speeds.

To do this right you need to find your minimum sink speed. Take some glider
lessons and you may get good enough to make it worth worrying about, but I
doubt you can make it work well in a power plane.

If on the other hand you can find some nice ridge lift or wave, then you can
save some gas.

The varios on gliders are generally quite sensitive and finding a thermal in
a power plane is not going to be trivial. Especially if you want to go
someplace.

My advice is to forget about it, but if you are curious, take up soaring -
it is a lot of fun and will improve your piloting skills and knowledge.


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Richard,

My advice is to forget about it,


Well, on a hot day in Prescott, AZ, it made my day in a BE35 - so I
wouldn't know why to forget about it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Richard Hertz" wrote:

It isn't the glide ratio that one is concerned with in thermals - rather the
minimum sink rate and the speed for minimum sink.

You've got too much glider time :-) In a glider, you want
to thermal near min sink speed. In an airplane, you want
max excess power, and that's Vy, max rate of climb.
However, at Vy in most aircraft, your turn radius will be
quite a bit larger than most thermals, so you end up trading
off turn radius for climb rate if you're going to turn in
thermals. You'd probably only want to do that if you're
trying to get over a mountain pass. As others have posted,
most of the time you just want to use the free energy that
thermals give and to do that, you slow way down and spend
time in rising air, dive through sinking air and fly the
cloud streets.


Usually thermals are fairly localized and glider pilots work a lot to stay
in them. Turns are routinely done by banking between 30 and 60 degrees at
slow relatively slow speeds.

To do this right you need to find your minimum sink speed. Take some glider
lessons and you may get good enough to make it worth worrying about, but I
doubt you can make it work well in a power plane.

If on the other hand you can find some nice ridge lift or wave, then you can
save some gas.

The varios on gliders are generally quite sensitive and finding a thermal in
a power plane is not going to be trivial. Especially if you want to go
someplace.

My advice is to forget about it, but if you are curious, take up soaring -
it is a lot of fun and will improve your piloting skills and knowledge.

It's an effective technique for increasing cruise speed,
reducing gas usage and for climbing to cross high terrain.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

Some thermals go up at 2000 feet per minute. Just add that to you climb
while you're in it.

I got a better than 2000 fpm climb a couple weeks ago on take off. Didn't
turn in it, but it lasted for a good 15 or 20 seconds.

Just be careful you're not climbing in a horizontal gust. These can be
deceiving and if you slow down to climb in it, you could find yourself out
of airspeed when the gust ends.

mike regish

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Thomas Borchert wrote
It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
stay on the ground.

That's ALWAYS the safest option.

You know, some of us fly entirely without engines - and we fly cross
country. We're literally counting on finding the lift and avoiding
the sink to avoid landing in a field or worse - because we can't climb
at all, even in still or slightly rising air. By comparison, flying
something that can actually climb 300 fpm seems like a huge luxury,
and dramatically safer.

You
should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Actually, Vy is probably too fast. In general, you need to fly just a
few knots over stall and in a fairly tight bank to stay in most
thermals. Since the air is turbulent, an incipient stall is not a
matter of if but when. Get comfortable with it. When you feel the
bit of the stall, release back pressure slightly until you feel the
plane flying again.

Michael