New fuel

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Interesting...the STC for 85% ethanol, or any mix of ethanol and 100LL has been
around since 1999 for the Cessna 180/182 series but nobody knows about it?

Taking it one step further, if the STC holds for any mix of ethanol and 100LL,
why wouldn't it hold for the gasahol from the local fillemup autogas store?

Jim



(Robert M. Gary)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
-They're testing it on a 201 right now.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

(Robert M. Gary) writes:

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Allow me to strip a few leaves off the cob....


"This project began in July, 1996."

Hmmm...8 years and counting. Not zipping along, but not too lengthy
either as these things go.

"The purpose of the project was to develop a fuel based on ethanol..."

I gotta wonder...given that this is being done in the Mid-West...what
was more important: to base the new fuel heavily on ethanol, or to
find a replacement for 100LL? In other words, in a research project
to simply find the best replacement for 100LL, would it necessarily
end up as ethanol? Probably not. Is this a solution looking for a
problem?

"The South Dakota Corn utlization Council..."
Seeing misspellings in the main website for a project is like
misspellings on a resume--I immediately mistrust everything else.

"June, 1997 - Install Ethanol Engine"

Oh-oh. This requires new engines?? Or what?

"Mooney 201 Project
This project began Fall, 1999 and is our first attempt to work with
Lycoming engines. Equipped with a 200 HP IO-360, the fuel system for
this aircraft will be modified for operation on both AGE-85 and
avgas."

Or at least modification to fuel systems. How much modification...how
much will this cost?

Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline? So what about performance or range?

What sort of processing is needed to produce this...can it be done
cheaply on a national scale?

Somehow it doesn't look like something that will replace 100LL.

I got a can of TCP and will have to start using that.

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Allow me to strip a few leaves off the cob....


Yet another ethanol scam. Hey, if you can't sell your corn, raise something
else. Don't use fraudulent studies to persuade politicians to force me to
buy it.

In article , Bob Fry wrote:
"The purpose of the project was to develop a fuel based on ethanol..."

I gotta wonder...given that this is being done in the Mid-West...what
was more important: to base the new fuel heavily on ethanol, or to
find a replacement for 100LL? In other words, in a research project
to simply find the best replacement for 100LL, would it necessarily
end up as ethanol? Probably not. Is this a solution looking for a
problem?

Perhaps a solution to the question about how the farmers can sell more
of their stuff...

Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline?

Yes, it's heating value is about 2/3 that of gasoline.

So what about performance or range?

Compared to autogas, ethanol has higher octane (ron=118, mon=100
IIRC), so compared to an autogas tuned engine you can increase the
compression and thus improve efficiency. That way one can compensate
somewhat for the lower heating value. OTOH, for an engine tuned for
high octane gas such as, oh, 100LL, you won't get this benefit.

What sort of processing is needed to produce this...can it be done
cheaply on a national scale?

If it could be done competetively the agricultural industry wouldn't
need massive government subsidies, would it? OTOH, if you would factor
in the price of a middle east presence to keep the oil flowing,
gasoline would be more expensive as well.

That does of course not mean that biofuels will be forever
uncompetetive. When oil supplies dwindle, the price will increase. At
the same time, more efficient ways of biofuel production are
developed.


--
Janne Blomqvist

"Janne Blomqvist" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob Fry wrote:
Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline?

Yes, it's heating value is about 2/3 that of gasoline.
:
When oil supplies dwindle, the price will increase. At
the same time, more efficient ways of biofuel production are
developed.

Question...how does the specific energy of corn oil compare with
Jet-A1 run in a diesel engine?

Tesco Supermarkets here in the UK now sell an "Ecodiesel"...it
has all of 5% biodiesel and costs 1p a litre more than their city
(reduced sulphur) diesel.

Paul

In article , Paul Sengupta wrote:
"Janne Blomqvist" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob Fry wrote:
Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline?

Yes, it's heating value is about 2/3 that of gasoline.
:
When oil supplies dwindle, the price will increase. At
the same time, more efficient ways of biofuel production are
developed.

Question...how does the specific energy of corn oil compare with
Jet-A1 run in a diesel engine?

I guess you mean biodiesel, which is produced from vegetable oils such
as soy, rapeseed or from animal fats. Ethanol is produced from corn,
but I've never heard about "corn oil".

The (higher) heating value of fuels is approximately (quick googling,
correct if I'm wrong)

kerosene (Jet A-1) 46 MJ/kg
diesel 46.1 MJ/kg
gasoline 48 MJ/kg
ethanol 29.7 MJ/kg
biodiesel 40 MJ/kg


Tesco Supermarkets here in the UK now sell an "Ecodiesel"...it
has all of 5% biodiesel and costs 1p a litre more than their city
(reduced sulphur) diesel.

The reason jets use kerosene instead of diesel is that diesel freezes
at higher temperatures than kerosene. Biodiesel is even worse in this
regard. Not nice if your tanks freeze solid on a high altitude
flight..

See

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/Cold%20Flow.PDF

and

http://www.biodiesel.org/markets/pre...tingReport.pdf


--
Janne Blomqvist

Janne Blomqvist wrote:

I guess you mean biodiesel, which is produced from vegetable oils such
as soy, rapeseed or from animal fats. Ethanol is produced from corn,
but I've never heard about "corn oil".

Corn oil falls into the vegetable oils category and could be used in biodiesel
production. It's common in American supermarkets and apparently can also be found in
Britain (since Paul is there).

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

The reason jets use kerosene instead of diesel is that diesel freezes
at higher temperatures than kerosene.

New Hampshire trailers and backwoods houses often have a 55-gallon oil
drum on stilts out back. It's filled with kerosene. If you try the
same thing with heating oil, it turns to sludge on some brisk morning,
and the stove goes out. Not every winter, but maybe one in five. That
would suggest 15 below to me. My father-in-law learned the truth of
this when he moved the oil tank outside to make room for a cellar
workshop.

During the great Arab Oil Embargo (1975? whenever) a friend bought a
VW with a diesel engine. He lived farther down the road than we did.
One morning here he comes, pushing the VW, which he rolled into our
drive and hitched the rest of the way to school. It happened several
times that winter, which was a cold one. So I reckon diesel gets
sludgy at an even higher temp than my father-in-law's outside fuel-oil
tank.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:09:53 +0300 (EEST), Janne Blomqvist
wrote:

If it could be done competetively the agricultural industry wouldn't
need massive government subsidies, would it?

For "industry," read Archer Daniels Midland. One company, one hand in
the taxpayer's pocket.

(Well, I suppose the farmers that ADM buys the corn from are also part
of the "industry.")

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com