secret advice

ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

Plot a V-n diagram and look where the load limits are for all airspeeds.
Calculate the various limit airspeeds at different weights and make
plots for each weight.

houstondan wrote:
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???
i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"

oh.


dan

Dan,

Although John is correct here is another way to look at it.

I don't have the POH for either aircraft in front of me but I'm fairly
certain that the speed you listed is well below Vna of both aircraft,
which means you 'should' be able to use full and abrupt control inputs
without structural damage to the airframe.

However, recovering from whatever attitude that puts you in, (including
possibly a spin) is up to you to recover without impacting anything.

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"houstondan" wrote in message
oups.com...
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some point
to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You can
stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level or
in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the roll
and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G when
you roll upright and return to level flight.

I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing my
first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around it
and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


"PJ Hunt" wrote in message
...

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

Mike is absolutely correct.

When you perform a properly executed barrel roll you should feel 2 to 3 g's.
This would be 1-2 g's more than normal.

In this case 'normal' is considered 1g, which as Mike explained what we feel
in unaccelerated flight, just like what you normally feel while sitting in a
chair at your computer.

I worded my post incorrectly and should have said "if performed properly,
you may well not pull more than 2 gs."

Barrel rolls are not difficult by any means, however if you have never done
one and you pull back to much in the wrong place, you will be far exceeding
Vna, and possibly Vne before you can say "whoops".

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some
point
to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You
can
stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level
or
in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the
roll
and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G
when
you roll upright and return to level flight.

I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
my
first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around
it
and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


"PJ Hunt" wrote in message
...

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you
may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
my first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip
around it and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way
around. Even snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in
a 172 with what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a
Decathlon. It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be
WAY slow going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


I dunno Mike,
I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I recommend
it for other reasons.

I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)

Marty

I'm sure it could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it in mine. One reason
is that the spin recovery in a Tripacer is different than most planes.
Somebody from the short wing piper club posted it once and it included
ailerons with the spin and just some different procedures than typical.

I'm thinking you're probably one of the first people to ever use the term
"snappy" with regard to the TP tho. ;-)

mike regish

"Marty" wrote in message
news

I dunno Mike,
I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I
recommend it for other reasons.

I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)

Marty

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:6wfxd.596545$D%.105833@attbi_s51...
I'm sure it could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it in mine. One
reason is that the spin recovery in a Tripacer is different than most
planes. Somebody from the short wing piper club posted it once and it
included ailerons with the spin and just some different procedures than
typical.

I'm thinking you're probably one of the first people to ever use the term
"snappy" with regard to the TP tho. ;-)

mike regish

OK, I'll rephrase. Faster (150hp ver.) and more agile than a Hawk but
noisier and less roomy.
When I got checked out for the insurance on mine, I had to find a CFI with
"make & model" time. I was required to get 5hrs on the checkout(it was my
first plane). After an hour, he asked for the controls and showed me lazy
8s,D-Rolls, falling leaf and others. Somewhere during this he says "I almost
forgot how much fun these things are!"
It may look funny to some people but the TP will always be one of my
favorites. Not by much, but it out ran my buddys hershey bar 180 Archer.

Do you have a site with pics of yours? I'd like to see it if you do.
I'll have to scan a pic and post mine on my site.

Marty

#1) Dont go skydiving without a parachute (that should be hitting close
to home if you fly where I think you do). Dont exit your own 150/2 in
flight without a qualified pilot at the controls either.

#2) Get a copy of the Cessna 150 Aerobatic Training Manual. Said book
may be out of print, but if you can find it it would be a good reference
for yanking and banking type stuff. I have my father's old copy that is
probably older than I am.

#3) Before continuing with said yanking and banking aspirations, head to
to LaPorte and get some aerobatic instruction or spin training. Even if
you don't ever intend to do such things in your own plane, its a good
exposure to just what kind of yanking and banking stuff is out there, as
well as how to recover when you overyank and over bank

Unfortunately, I can't go into any REALLY secret advice without the
secret handshake.

Dave

Disclaimer to the rest of the world: the above advice is predicated on
living in or near the Houston, Texas and being familiar with places of
business alluded to in items #1 and #3

houstondan wrote:
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan