Pawnee 235 vs Cessna Bird Dog vs Maule as towplanes

I realize this has been hashed over in the past, but looking for a fresh discussion on the relative merits of these three towplanes.

Specifically, how does a stock Bird Dog compare to a 235 Pawnee, and how do various Maules do as towplanes.

Our club is considering various options for adding to our towplane fleet and any info/personal experiences/good stories would be appreciated.

Kirk
66

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:35:59 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
I realize this has been hashed over in the past, but looking for a fresh discussion on the relative merits of these three towplanes.



Specifically, how does a stock Bird Dog compare to a 235 Pawnee, and how do various Maules do as towplanes.



Our club is considering various options for adding to our towplane fleet and any info/personal experiences/good stories would be appreciated.



Kirk

66

Don't exclude the Cessna 175 from consideration.

Mike

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:18:10 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
Don't exclude the Cessna 175 from consideration. Mike

Only if is has at least the 180HP conversion with C/S prop. Or better yet, the 0-470 conversion (230 HP) with C/S Prop. The only real issue with the latter is the CG tends to be very far fowrard, and you can not use more than 2 of the 4 notches of flap for landing, or you will not have enough elevator power to slow down and the nose gear will be the first thing to contact the ground. Not a good way to land those things!

Have no data to help out relative to the others. My club operates a 182 and a 175 with the 0-470 conversion. Both are good at pulling gliders up even with the spoilers out.

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:36:40 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:18:10 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:

Don't exclude the Cessna 175 from consideration. Mike



Only if is has at least the 180HP conversion with C/S prop. Or better yet, the 0-470 conversion (230 HP) with C/S Prop. The only real issue with the latter is the CG tends to be very far fowrard, and you can not use more than 2 of the 4 notches of flap for landing, or you will not have enough elevator power to slow down and the nose gear will be the first thing to contact the ground. Not a good way to land those things!



Have no data to help out relative to the others. My club operates a 182 and a 175 with the 0-470 conversion. Both are good at pulling gliders up even with the spoilers out.

Our field is all grass so we prefer taildraggers; in fact, all of the power planes on our field (2 club towplanes and 3 private planes) are taildraggers.

We're thinking of charging a landing fee for nosedraggers... ;^)

Kirk
66

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:41:29 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
We're thinking of charging a landing fee for nosedraggers... ;^) Kirk 66

As a friend of mine once said, "Tail-dragger pilot break ground and head into the wind. Nose-dragger pilot break wind and head into the ground!" Good enough to put on a tee shirt?

Steve

Not the rile the conservative feathers of the tow plane experts, but I wonder if anyone in the USA has a scenario where a combination tow plane motor-glider trainer like the Phoenix makes sense? http://www.phoenixairusa.com/Specifications.php

I believe it has a bigger engine option if you need the pull for towing.

I wonder how it compares to the traditional big iron choices if you fairly consider all of the variables. Would it make sense if a club used it as a backup tow plane and otherwise used it for training (including XC training!). You might get some income from renting it by the hour. It might make sense for a private hobby-commercial glider port in a remote area with few customers and an owner with other reasons for owning a commuter plane.

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 9:35:59 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
I realize this has been hashed over in the past, but looking for a fresh discussion on the relative merits of these three towplanes.



Specifically, how does a stock Bird Dog compare to a 235 Pawnee, and how do various Maules do as towplanes.



Our club is considering various options for adding to our towplane fleet and any info/personal experiences/good stories would be appreciated.



Kirk

66

This is my best recollection from a long-ago experience towing with a Maule. The memory may be wrong and the airplane may have changed over the intervening years.

IIRC, the Maule seemed to tow with a pronounced nose-up attitude so jerks on the rope tended to cause it to rock alarmingly in pitch. It was a very unpleasant tow plane for both the tug pilot and glider pilot.

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:35:59 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
I realize this has been hashed over in the past, but looking for a fresh discussion on the relative merits of these three towplanes.



Specifically, how does a stock Bird Dog compare to a 235 Pawnee, and how do various Maules do as towplanes.



Our club is considering various options for adding to our towplane fleet and any info/personal experiences/good stories would be appreciated.



Kirk

66

Birddog is expensive, charismatic, fun to fly and has some maintenance bugaboos that can get expensive (electric flaps fail regularly, ours has manual flaps and they've caused problems too!). It does tow well. The back seat isn't nearly as useful for towing checkouts as you might think -- sit in the back and you'll understand why!

Pawnee is generally a better work horse, easier to fly, cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain.

Also consider Callair.

Evan Ludeman

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:35:59 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
I realize this has been hashed over in the past, but looking for a fresh discussion on the relative merits of these three towplanes.



Specifically, how does a stock Bird Dog compare to a 235 Pawnee, and how do various Maules do as towplanes.



Our club is considering various options for adding to our towplane fleet and any info/personal experiences/good stories would be appreciated.



Kirk

66

I've towed with all 3. The Maule has a very high deck angle and restricts visibility leaving the pilot wondering what's out there in front where you can't see. Not a comfortable feeling.

The PA25-235 is certainly the cheapest to purchase and is benign to fly. Wing tanks, as opposed to a center tank, reduce pilot fatigue. The weight in the wings reduce the affects of roll in turbulence. I guess this is not an issue unless you are flying all day long.

The L-19 is by far the most enjoyable to fly and it's light handling allow all day towing with minimal fatigue. It flies beautifully at slow air-speeds and still has a good roll rate, unlike the PA-25. It also sips the least amount of fuel. It does tend to be expensive to maintain. Limiting the flap speed is advised. The flaps do allow for the steeper approaches and a much slower approach speed than the PA-25.

On Friday, August 22, 2014 7:48:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:

I've towed with all 3. The Maule has a very high deck angle and restricts visibility leaving the pilot wondering what's out there in front where you can't see. Not a comfortable feeling.



The PA25-235 is certainly the cheapest to purchase and is benign to fly. Wing tanks, as opposed to a center tank, reduce pilot fatigue. The weight in the wings reduce the affects of roll in turbulence. I guess this is not an issue unless you are flying all day long.



The L-19 is by far the most enjoyable to fly and it's light handling allow all day towing with minimal fatigue. It flies beautifully at slow air-speeds and still has a good roll rate, unlike the PA-25. It also sips the least amount of fuel. It does tend to be expensive to maintain. Limiting the flap speed is advised. The flaps do allow for the steeper approaches and a much slower approach speed than the PA-25.

Great info from all, thanks!

I've seen several comments on maintenance costs. What makes the Bird Dog more expensive? Does that cost include the long-term expense of maintaining and replacing the Pawnee fabric? We also tend to do most maintenance in-house.

Note that we are looking at one of the rebuilt Bird Dogs from Air Repair (http://www.airrepairinc.com/L-19.html), not an older one. Good Pawnees, on the other hand, are getting harder to find - unless you rebuild yourself or outsource - and now the costs go up fast.

Kirk
66