VFR PHL to 5B6

I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
around this airspace.

My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
(and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
Rich Russell

Rich,
I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.

Michelle

RNR wrote:

I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
around this airspace.

My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
(and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
Rich Russell

Rich, remember to look out for all the Maule traffic around the Class B!

Michelle P wrote:
Rich,
I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:03:36 GMT, Michelle P
wrote:

Rich,
I have flown over, under and through the New York Class B.
Over is just fine but getting up there may take a while.
If you do not mind water going under is quite doable. You can fly under
around the east side. Only about 10 minutes over water and lots of time
saved. You can ever call them up and ask to go through. 5500 north bound
Directly over JFK the out to Calverton VOR.

Michelle

Thanks for the reply. I have been considering flying under the east
side and may still do that.
Rich Russell

Regarding my post - please don't read into my reflections that there was
anything wrong with my flight. Because of the way I've been flying
(generally IFR), I found a non-talking VFR a flight a bit strange.

Having said that, I've found NY ATC very accomodating when they can be.
I'd say that an over the top flight is fine, weather permitting. Give
it a full 1,000 ft clearance and talk to them. Good advice given by
Jose and others in my thread.

Though it doesn't directly relate to your flight, one of the most
beautiful flights I've done recently was KHPN to Durham IFR. I planned
and expected to be cleared somewhere out over Jersey. It was a
beautiful dawn over NYC and I was cleared directly over JFK at 5,000.
Despite 4 or 5 departures having to halt their ascents until seeing or
clearing me, it appeared to be no problem. And again, all quite beautiful.

RNR wrote:
I'm contemplating a flight from the Philly area to Cape Cod. My
biggest concern is the huge Class B area that encompasses Newark and
the New York Airports. I often fly around the Philly Bravo with
little in the way of route disruption. It will, however be a long way
around this airspace.

My question is this: is it unreasonable (or unsafe) to consider flying
over the New York Bravo? That would make my trip much more direct. I
doubt that I would get clearance to fly through. I also doubt that I
would be able to get flight following. I am a little concerned about
flying over the Bravo, especially considering Maule Driver's recent
post about overflying Philly's space. If I do fly over the Bravo,
should I call approach and give them a heads-up about my intentions
(and maybe get flight following that way) or are they too busy to be
concerned with a VFR flyover? Thanks.
Rich Russell

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:28:52 GMT, Maule Driver
wrote:

Regarding my post - please don't read into my reflections that there was
anything wrong with my flight. Because of the way I've been flying
(generally IFR), I found a non-talking VFR a flight a bit strange.

Having said that, I've found NY ATC very accomodating when they can be.
I'd say that an over the top flight is fine, weather permitting. Give
it a full 1,000 ft clearance and talk to them. Good advice given by
Jose and others in my thread.

snipped...

Thanks Maule. I don't think I'm reading too much into your comments.
You did, however, reinforce in my mind the slightly unsettling feeling
that I get when I realize that I'm the traffic that ATC is warning
someone about. I can see how a VFR flight over the Bravo would be
condidered a nuisance by ATC, even though it is legal. I'd like to
talk to them, but I'm not too proud to admit that I'm a little
intimidated about talking to those rapid-fire New York controllers.
I've flown the VFR exclusion up the Hudson River before but I've never
communicatd with NY approach. That flight was all self-announcing.
Rich Russell

RNR wrote:

I can see how a VFR flight over the Bravo would be
condidered a nuisance by ATC, even though it is legal.

ATC wasn't warning anyone about me when I flew over New York.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

RNR wrote:

but I'm not too proud to admit that I'm a little
intimidated about talking to those rapid-fire New York controllers.

Get over this, and talk to them. They're people too, you know, and
typically as helpful as circumstances permit. I was once overflying
Manhattan (VFR, showing off to a "tourist") with an LGA controller working
only me.

One option for you involves staying low and flying one of the "corridors".
There's an official exclusion zone which you can take up the Hudson and
never be speaking to anyone (which I see you've flown before). That's an
option for you heading to the north.

There's an unofficial corridor at 1000 and below along the Garden State
Parkway. I've been told that this is because of traffic reporters, but I
don't know. I've used this a few times to cut through. Of course, you do
need to be speaking to them (you'll actually be speaking to EWR) for this.

You can fly north to, and then over, CDW at something like 3500 (or perhaps
above). I've done that a few times too.

Or you can sneak under the shelf south of JFK, and then overfly LI and the
LI Sound. That's not my favorite idea, however.

Watching on RADAR, I see a lot of traffic heading up the Hudson w/in the
class B. You could try to request that at some reasonable altitude, for
another option.

Or, you could just overfly while getting advisories.

It doesn't hurt to ask, and to try different options if one isn't available.
And several of these options aren't even something you'd have to request at
all. But I do recommend talking to ATC. I do that whenever I can, even if
just out for some chandelles and such. An extra pair of eyes is never a
bad thing. And the more you do this, the easier it'll get.

- Andrew

Flying IFR into and out of the NY Class B is definitely the easiest,
but I've come in a few times via FF and that worked out just as easily
as IFR. Just be on your toes and don't miss a radio call from them, as
things can get _very_ hectic in short order.

One of the best flights I ever had was flying from Sky Acres airport
(about 8 miles NNE of Poughkeepsie) up to 8500 feet, directly over LGA,
east of the East River over Queens & Brooklyn, then descending through
the Class B, rounding the southern tip of Manhattan, back up the
Hudson, and then direct from about Central Park to Caldwell airport,
all while talking to NY Approach. They were incredibly accomodating,
and I could tell they definitely appreciated the call up as I
approached from the north. Even though I would've been well above their
airspace, I figured it couldn't hurt to be talking to them, so
definitely give them a call up... you'll get some traffic calls for
planes departing EWR, JFK, and LGA, so maybe plan ahead and figure out
which runways are active at each airport... then you'll know exactly
where to look for departing traffic.

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Guy Elden Jr wrote:
Just be on your toes and don't miss a radio call from them, as
things can get _very_ hectic in short order.

Amen. About 25 years ago I missed a call or two while doing Caldwell to
KHPN. I got a tongue lashing that took a few years to forget. I blame
it partially on poor audio. I wasn't wearing a headset at the time -
they were far from in universal use.

But the NY Controllers are great. The controllers who can do the high
density stuff, seem to thrive on it. Making it all work may be the
reward. All you have to do is hold up your end of the bargain and tell
them what you want, hear what they are saying, and do what you commit to
do. Drop the ball, and it takes about 2 of those NY seconds to let you
know.

It's funny how time and experience change things. A tongue lashing from
a controller wouldn't bother me much now. Doing something stupid or
dangerous in front of other pilots would.