Cloud Flying - Experimental

Does anyone know of any Experimental - Amateur Built gliders that have
operating limitations which allow cloud flying with a Turn and Bank?

Does anyone know what many type certified designs (Schweizer 1-34
comes to mind) had to prove to be allowed to cloud fly with a Turn and
Bank installed? I have a copy of the Basic Glider Criteria Handbook
in the mail, perhaps that will provide some insight into this
question.

Shawn Knickerbocker will be presenting on cloud flying at the SSA
convention on thursday. From visiting with Shawn, it should be a
fantastic presentation and I hope to see you all there!

My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

wrote in message
ups.com...
Does anyone know of any Experimental - Amateur Built gliders that have
operating limitations which allow cloud flying with a Turn and Bank?

Does anyone know what many type certified designs (Schweizer 1-34
comes to mind) had to prove to be allowed to cloud fly with a Turn and
Bank installed? I have a copy of the Basic Glider Criteria Handbook
in the mail, perhaps that will provide some insight into this
question.

Shawn Knickerbocker will be presenting on cloud flying at the SSA
convention on thursday. From visiting with Shawn, it should be a
fantastic presentation and I hope to see you all there!

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels


"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

wrote:

Funny how pure glider pilots

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into
IMC where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure.
I particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I
exited the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider
with iced up wings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Most gliders are certified for cloud flying in the
UK, but then we have much more cloud than most countries.
I used to own a Nimbus 2 (all flying tailplane version)
and cloud climbed it on a number of occasions without
difficulty, using an artificial horizon and a turn
and slip indicator. However I had been trained to blind
fly in light aircraft first. Don't do it without getting
some training first! Also don't circle within 10 knots
of the stall speed in cloud.

Derek Copeland

At 20:42 05 February 2007, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH
and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for
a 'gyro panel' is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus
2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure
I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

Tony,
I think we'd all agree that with sensible
speed control and suitable instruments, then inadvertent
spinning is not very likely or even particularly dangerous.
However, before going into that cloud I'd think twice
about other things - other gliders doing the same thing,
other power traffic flying IFR, and the possible violence
of the turbulence. Using a nice little isolated summer
CU or descending through a thin high layer is one kind
of situation, entering a large CuNim or extensive stratus
near the deck would be quite another. The FAA's opinion
in a day-VFR-only Experimental might also influence
your decisions.

Good luck,

Ian






At 13:42 06 February 2007, Derek Copeland wrote:
Most gliders are certified for cloud flying in the
UK, but then we have much more cloud than most countries.
I used to own a Nimbus 2 (all flying tailplane version)
and cloud climbed it on a number of occasions without
difficulty, using an artificial horizon and a turn
and slip indicator. However I had been trained to blind
fly in light aircraft first. Don't do it without getting
some training first! Also don't circle within 10 knots
of the stall speed in cloud.

Derek Copeland

At 20:42 05 February 2007, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH
and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for
a 'gyro panel' is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus
2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure
I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim