Lazy Eight's

After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry at 30* pitch & 30* bank proceeding
to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls
without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder control
and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:15:25 -0000, wrote:

Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!

No airplane is "certified for 60 degree pitch". Sixty degrees pitch qualifies
as an aerobatic maneuver. Airplanes *are* certified for aerobatics, but that is
solely a limitation on G-loading. Dick's description of the maneuver ("...60*
pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls...")
sounds unlikely to exceed the positive G limits for normal category.

Finally, the maneuver where Dick describes reaching 60 degrees of pitch is a
blind canyon escape maneuver, where you suddenly discover you've got granite
ahead and on both sides. It's the choice of the maneuver or going
two-dimensional on the canyon wall. Might I gently suggested that if you're
ever faced with the choice between A) Death or B) Violating FAA regs, that you
select B)?

Ron Wanttaja

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

T




On Jun 24, 11:30 am, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:15:25 -0000, wrote:
Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!

No airplane is "certified for 60 degree pitch". Sixty degrees pitch qualifies
as an aerobatic maneuver. Airplanes *are* certified for aerobatics, but that is
solely a limitation on G-loading. Dick's description of the maneuver ("...60*
pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls...")
sounds unlikely to exceed the positive G limits for normal category.

Finally, the maneuver where Dick describes reaching 60 degrees of pitch is a
blind canyon escape maneuver, where you suddenly discover you've got granite
ahead and on both sides. It's the choice of the maneuver or going
two-dimensional on the canyon wall. Might I gently suggested that if you're
ever faced with the choice between A) Death or B) Violating FAA regs, that you
select B)?

Ron Wanttaja

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:36:11 -0000, wrote:

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

No, you are undoubtedly right. But there is no such thing as being "certified
for 60 degree pitch." The manufacturer can place any warning they wish in the
manual, but that's not the same as certification. The airplane is certified in
the normal (or utility) category, in the aerobatic category. But this is a *G*
limit, not an overt certification limit on bank or pitch angle. If Mooney said
the limits are 59 degrees bank and 29 degrees pitch, that STILL wouldn't make it
a "certification" limit.

From what I can tell, Part 91's only comment about aerobatics is that you have
to wear a 'chute...it doesn't seem to care about the certification category of
the aircraft. The 91.13 catch-all undoubtedly works, though.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being certified in
the aerobatic category. My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an annual
inspection. I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category.

Ron, of all people who should know the difference between certificated and
certified...


My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an annual
inspection.

Nor has any experimental aircraft. A once-a-year CONDITION inspection
though.


I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

Nor do you need a medical to fly a Light Sport Aircraft, which the FlyBaby
certainly is, only a LSA pilot OR HIGHER, which a PPC certainly is.. Being
a homebuilt and certificated as such, it HAS to have an N number.

Sheesh, you kids.

Jim



I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:36:11 -0000, wrote:

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

No, you are undoubtedly right. But there is no such thing as being
"certified
for 60 degree pitch." The manufacturer can place any warning they wish in
the
manual, but that's not the same as certification. The airplane is
certified in
the normal (or utility) category, in the aerobatic category. But this is
a *G*
limit, not an overt certification limit on bank or pitch angle. If Mooney
said
the limits are 59 degrees bank and 29 degrees pitch, that STILL wouldn't
make it
a "certification" limit.

From what I can tell, Part 91's only comment about aerobatics is that you
have
to wear a 'chute...it doesn't seem to care about the certification
category of
the aircraft. The 91.13 catch-all undoubtedly works, though.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category. My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an
annual
inspection. I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a
Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

Actually, this explains a lot that had been made a little confusing by some
of the discussions which I had heard. In other words, just as a type certif
ied aircraft which falls within the LSA limitations of weight, speed and
configuration; the same is true for an amateur built experimental with the
appropriate operating limitations.

That leaves one question about which I am still curious. Do you happen to
know what pilot rating and medical certification requirements would exist
for the initial pilot of a new amateur built experimental (or a new design)
expected to comply with the LSA definitions.

Thanks,
Peter

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
Sixty degrees pitch qualifies as an aerobatic maneuver.

Maybe, but it seems that you're confusing acrobatic flight with parachute
requirements.

Hilton

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:32:10 GMT, "Hilton" wrote:

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
Sixty degrees pitch qualifies as an aerobatic maneuver.

Maybe, but it seems that you're confusing acrobatic flight with parachute
requirements.

It's true, the Part 91 definition of aerobatics makes no mention of bank or
pitch angles. Part 23 lets the manufacturer define the maneuvers the aircraft
is allowed to do...looks to me that they can declare a plane "aerobatic" (by
meeting the structural requirements) even if it's banned from doing loops,
spins, or rolls.

Marketing might be a problem, though. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

The course used a French Acro plane. My question is on the 30/30 in an
experimental..
wrote in message
ps.com...
Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!