Question about being unpressurized at higher (Class A) altitudes

My father has a C182 in which I have been to about 10K ft MSL. I am
currently working on my license and am considering building a Velocity
or Aerocanard, both of which have ceilings up into Class A airspace,
one as high as FL250. (Before anyone cautions me about building one
of these, I know two people with Velocities and a local builder who
has built multiple canard aircraft. I will have lots of support and
will have logged PIC time in one long before mine is built.) While I
know that oxygen is required at altitude, what is the effect of the
lower pressure on pilot and passengers? I am doing this in part for
the purpose of transporting myself and family to visit friends and
relatives and am curious about the effect on my two children,
currently 3 and 5, and whether this will make them less pleasant to
fly with.

TIA

For a variety of reasons pilots usually don't fly in the flight levels
unless there is some clear advantage to doing so. This usually
involves trying to top weather or pick up a strong tailwind. At flight
levels you'll need an O2 mask (not a cannula). I'm not sure if that
will work for a 3 or 5 year old. However, realistically, you are
probably unlikely to ever want/need to actually fly that high. Being
able to fly comfortably above 12K is very advantageous, being able to
fly above 18K is much less so.

-Robert

es330td wrote:
My father has a C182 in which I have been to about 10K ft MSL. I am
currently working on my license and am considering building a Velocity
or Aerocanard, both of which have ceilings up into Class A airspace,
one as high as FL250. (Before anyone cautions me about building one
of these, I know two people with Velocities and a local builder who
has built multiple canard aircraft. I will have lots of support and
will have logged PIC time in one long before mine is built.) While I
know that oxygen is required at altitude, what is the effect of the
lower pressure on pilot and passengers? I am doing this in part for
the purpose of transporting myself and family to visit friends and
relatives and am curious about the effect on my two children,
currently 3 and 5, and whether this will make them less pleasant to
fly with.

TIA

I'd give this a lot of thought before doing it. You can of course fly an
unpressurized aircraft at altitudes requiring O2 if the aircraft is
capable and you have the correct O2 system installed, but I'd be
particularly careful with children this young. Mask feeding is dependent
on a careful fit of the mask to the face and any movement of the mask
could cause insufficient O2 flow to the user.
To be blunt, it's doable, but would require constant monitoring of
children this young.
If ity was me, I'd not consider flying at these altitudes with young
children. There are just too many possibilities for problems, and a
young child deprived of oxygen caused by moving the mask could easily be
come something you wouldn't want to deal with I'm sure.
I've flown high altitude many times in unpressurized prop fighters and
even I had a serious incident in a P51 Mustang caused by an improper O2
feed.
Be careful.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 13, 9:47 am, es330td wrote:
My father has a C182 in which I have been to about 10K ft MSL. I am
currently working on my license and am considering building a Velocity
or Aerocanard, both of which have ceilings up into Class A airspace,
one as high as FL250. (Before anyone cautions me about building one
of these, I know two people with Velocities and a local builder who
has built multiple canard aircraft. I will have lots of support and
will have logged PIC time in one long before mine is built.) While I
know that oxygen is required at altitude, what is the effect of the
lower pressure on pilot and passengers? I am doing this in part for
the purpose of transporting myself and family to visit friends and
relatives and am curious about the effect on my two children,
currently 3 and 5, and whether this will make them less pleasant to
fly with.

TIA

I am not at all sure if this is accurate, but Ernie Gann in his book
"Fate is the Hunter" described an episode where he was carrying troops
in the back and they were getting a bit out of hand. He climbed and
the reduced oxygen resulted in a cabin of slumbering souls. Two
caveats: I am not sure . . . but alcohol may have played a role in
the story and . . . my experience with high altitude unpressurized
flight is that by the time I get back to the ground, I have a headache
that would make most migranes blush. Obviously, not everyone has the
same experience.

Take care . . .

John

John wrote:

I am not at all sure if this is accurate, but Ernie Gann in his book
"Fate is the Hunter" described an episode where he was carrying troops
in the back and they were getting a bit out of hand. He climbed and
the reduced oxygen resulted in a cabin of slumbering souls. Two
caveats: I am not sure . . . but alcohol may have played a role in
the story and . . .


I've read "Fate is the Hunter" several times and I
don't remember that story. If you can think of
another Gann book that it might be in, I'd sure
like to read it.

On Sep 13, 1:18 pm, Jim Stewart wrote:
John wrote:
I am not at all sure if this is accurate, but Ernie Gann in his book
"Fate is the Hunter" described an episode where he was carrying troops
in the back and they were getting a bit out of hand. He climbed and
the reduced oxygen resulted in a cabin of slumbering souls. Two
caveats: I am not sure . . . but alcohol may have played a role in
the story and . . .

I've read "Fate is the Hunter" several times and I
don't remember that story. If you can think of
another Gann book that it might be in, I'd sure
like to read it.

OK Jim, lemme see. . . I dont think it is in the High and Mighty. . .
so try Gentlemen of Adventure, or Band of Brothers, or In the Company
of Eagles or maybe Hostage to Fortune which is Gann's actual
biography.

Hmmm . . . might be a good excuse to re-read his books. Although I
read the 1986 reprint of Fate is the Hunter had several episodes
editted out that appeared in the original 1961 edition. I do remember
when i re read it last, I was left kinda wondering what happened to
the book.

Take care . . .

John

On Sep 13, 9:59 am, John wrote:
On Sep 13, 9:47 am, es330td wrote:

My father has a C182 in which I have been to about 10K ft MSL. I am
currently working on my license and am considering building a Velocity
or Aerocanard, both of which have ceilings up into Class A airspace,
one as high as FL250. (Before anyone cautions me about building one
of these, I know two people with Velocities and a local builder who
has built multiple canard aircraft. I will have lots of support and
will have logged PIC time in one long before mine is built.) While I
know that oxygen is required at altitude, what is the effect of the
lower pressure on pilot and passengers? I am doing this in part for
the purpose of transporting myself and family to visit friends and
relatives and am curious about the effect on my two children,
currently 3 and 5, and whether this will make them less pleasant to
fly with.

TIA

I am not at all sure if this is accurate, but Ernie Gann in his book
"Fate is the Hunter" described an episode where he was carrying troops
in the back and they were getting a bit out of hand. He climbed and
the reduced oxygen resulted in a cabin of slumbering souls. Two
caveats: I am not sure . . . but alcohol may have played a role in
the story and . . . my experience with high altitude unpressurized
flight is that by the time I get back to the ground, I have a headache
that would make most migranes blush. Obviously, not everyone has the
same experience.

I've done this with my boys. However, I usually raise them to about
12K, not 22K to make them sleep. I've also spoken with C5 pilots who
do the same fro the troops in the back when they get worked up.
However, we're talking about 12Kish, not 22K.

_Robert

"John" wrote

I am not at all sure if this is accurate, but Ernie Gann in his book
"Fate is the Hunter" described an episode where he was carrying troops
in the back and they were getting a bit out of hand. He climbed and
the reduced oxygen resulted in a cabin of slumbering souls.

In airliners, all you have to do is change the cabin altitude pressure
setting, and you can do the same thing, and they do occasionally do this on
(especially on) oceanic red-eyes.

They don't have to go all that high to have a noticeable effect, but it does
make it easy for the flight attendants.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans writes:

In airliners, all you have to do is change the cabin altitude pressure
setting, and you can do the same thing, and they do occasionally do this on
(especially on) oceanic red-eyes.

You can only go to 8000 in (most) airliners.

They don't have to go all that high to have a noticeable effect, but it does
make it easy for the flight attendants.

Only if the FAs are wearing oxygen masks.

On Sep 13, 9:47 am, es330td wrote:
My father has a C182 in which I have been to about 10K ft MSL. I am
currently working on my license and am considering building a Velocity
or Aerocanard, both of which have ceilings up into Class A airspace,
one as high as FL250. (Before anyone cautions me about building one
of these, I know two people with Velocities and a local builder who
has built multiple canard aircraft. I will have lots of support and
will have logged PIC time in one long before mine is built.) While I
know that oxygen is required at altitude, what is the effect of the
lower pressure on pilot and passengers? I am doing this in part for
the purpose of transporting myself and family to visit friends and
relatives and am curious about the effect on my two children,
currently 3 and 5, and whether this will make them less pleasant to
fly with.

TIA

Thanks for everyone's responses. I am somewhat lacking in knowledge
at this point; I know my desires but not the specifics of
implementation. By the time this plane is built the kids will
probably be 5 or more years older but if my friend with the Velocity
lets me rent it it may be an issue sooner. I know that planes gain
efficiency at altitude but I don't know how high one must go to
realize those gains. I just assumed that with a service ceiling over
FL200 that pilots would generally want to go there. My CFI flies King
Air 350's and Citation Jets for hire so I am used to hearing about his
experiences, something very different than the flying I will be doing.