Airlines running fuel margins thin

Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on Good Morning America
this morning:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the majors if they
keep this up.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on Good Morning America
this morning:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the majors if they
keep this up.

You're thinking of the 'Gimli Glider' then? That was just good old
fashioned miscalculation, but the fact that the first officer was an in
practice glider pilot saved a lot of lives that day.

Alistair Wright
Scotland

On Nov 8, 11:17 am, "Alistair Wright"
wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com... Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on Good Morning America
this morning:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the majors if they
keep this up.

You're thinking of the 'Gimli Glider' then? That was just good old
fashioned miscalculation, but the fact that the first officer was an in
practice glider pilot saved a lot of lives that day.

Alistair Wright
Scotland

No im saying that if they keep it up its only a matter of time before
they genuinely run one out of gas. from what i have found so far, i
can only find one genuine run out of gas previously, by a south
american airline headed to JFK. They landed out and managed to fly
the nearly new (under 100 hrs) 737 out at a later date. Others are of
course Gimli, and the Air Transat (I think) flight that deadsticked
into the Azores after a bad connection leaked out a bunch of gas, and
there was one other fuel starvation that was because of a hijacking.

On Nov 8, 12:56 pm, wrote:
On Nov 8, 11:17 am, "Alistair Wright"
wrote:


Its only a matter of time before
they genuinely run one out of gas. from what i have found so far, i
can only find one genuine run out of gas previously, by a south
american airline headed to JFK.


United ran one dry near Portland, OR sometime in the late 1960s.

I think it's unlikely that anyone will run out in a domestic US
operation,
carrying 45 minutes of reserve fuel. Worst case: land short of the
destination, at an airport. The real issue is crossing the ocean.
This
does not include mismeasurement, fuel leaks, or the like.

On Nov 8, 3:52 pm, wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:56 pm, wrote:

On Nov 8, 11:17 am, "Alistair Wright"
wrote:

Its only a matter of time before
they genuinely run one out of gas. from what i have found so far, i
can only find one genuine run out of gas previously, by a south
american airline headed to JFK.

United ran one dry near Portland, OR sometime in the late 1960s.

I think it's unlikely that anyone will run out in a domestic US
operation,
carrying 45 minutes of reserve fuel. Worst case: land short of the
destination, at an airport. The real issue is crossing the ocean.
This
does not include mismeasurement, fuel leaks, or the like.

I have an unattributed report from a former USAF pilot pal that a
sleeping crew flew a freighter past LAX and ran out of fuel on the way
back after a wake-up selcall. Glided in successfully. I've known air
crews to haul enough fuel to bypass expensive fuel stops for cheaper
options.

http://www.airsafe.com/events/noengine.htm has a few other out of fuel
events and power loss events.

Frank Whiteley

they genuinely run one out of gas. from what i have found so far, i
can only find one genuine run out of gas previously, by a south
american airline headed to JFK.

In 1979 Pan Am flight to JFK diverted to Newark and ran out of fuel
while taxing.

B.

They have been doing for years.
The last time I was up front in an Airline Cockpit as a guest (before
9/11) during a none stop flight from Duesseldorf to Toronto, a
decision by the crew was made regarding a precautionary fuel stop.
Even though the flight could have gone the distance with ease, there
would not have been the legal amount of reserve fuel on board at
arrival in Toronto. Everybody was ticked off. But the winds were much
higher then forecast even though a different altitude was requested to
mitigate
some of the effect.

Udo

On Nov 8, 11:18 am, wrote:
Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on Good Morning America
this morning:http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the majors if they
keep this up.

On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, wrote:
Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on Good Morning America
this morning:http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the majors if they
keep this up.

There are several airline pilots who are active members at Portmoak...

One of the neworks had a program last week titled A
Day in the Life of American Airlines. They talked
about no longer ferrying fuel back and forth, but they
are not going to cut the margins enough to run out
of fuel; that way absolute bankruptcy lies. Imagine
the class-action suits!

At 20:18 08 November 2007, Cats wrote:
On Nov 8, 4:18 pm, wrote:
Heres a report from WABC that apparently aired on
Good Morning America
this morning:http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5
747236

appears the airlines are using minimum fuel as much
as possible to
reduce fuel burns and costs. Seems to me that some
good glider
experience could become a hiring requirement at the
majors if they
keep this up.

There are several airline pilots who are active members
at Portmoak...

On Nov 8, 2:24 pm, Nyal Williams
wrote:
One of the neworks had a program last week titled A
Day in the Life of American Airlines. They talked
about no longer ferrying fuel back and forth, but they
are not going to cut the margins enough to run out
of fuel; that way absolute bankruptcy lies. Imagine
the class-action suits!


no, they wont push it so far that they are sure to run out of gas, but
they will push it right to absolute minimum.

from the article:

"Take the case of Newark Liberty International, where in a six month
period in 2005 just five flights landed under minimum or low fuel
conditions. Compare that to a similar period in 2007 in which 73
flights came into Newark with minimum fuel. "

an increase of over 14 times in the course of a year. so the airline
is giving them minimum fuel and then if they encounter any sort of
delay they are cutting into thin reserves. apparently the captains
lack the necessary backbone to tell dispatch that they need more gas.
instead they just blindly follow company policy and whatever dispatch
tells them. so much for being the final authority for the safety of
flight. maybe they all just secretly want to be glider pilots.