dogfight

A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.

wrote in news:93e58032-93f3-4f75-8000-
:

A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.

I've seen that program and it's not bad. Some of the animation is a little
primitive. Airplanes don't move exactly like they do in the program, but it
's not bad program.
I saw a good one on Subaro Sakai's most famous battle, and a couple of good
ones about Korea, which up til now I knew little or nothing about.


Bertie

Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.


That's sort of it, and yet in this case the plane never really rolled
over -- it was never inverted.

Hard to describe, but: instead of spinning after he induced the stall,
he relaxed the stick and kicked hard bottom rudder. The plane kind of
looped sideways, if you can picture that.

That particular move may be on the "trailer" for the particular DVD
I'm talking about, the P51, on history channel's web site.

I've got to get to an airshow where a P51 is flown.

wrote in news:8d05f97a-c082-4388-8a70-cfca37e62bc8
@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:


Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.


That's sort of it, and yet in this case the plane never really rolled
over -- it was never inverted.

Hard to describe, but: instead of spinning after he induced the stall,
he relaxed the stick and kicked hard bottom rudder. The plane kind of
looped sideways, if you can picture that.

Sounds a bit like a vertical reverse, maybe, which is sort of a partial
snap from one side to the other.

That particular move may be on the "trailer" for the particular DVD
I'm talking about, the P51, on history channel's web site.

I've got to get to an airshow where a P51 is flown.


They're nice to watch do aerobatics, all right. The Merlin makes a nice
noise!



Bertie

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum. It will
snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.




--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news
wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.



This is what I've understood about the airplane. I have a manual for it
describing the spin characteristics. i wouldn't want a departure at low
altitude in one of those things! The feeling has to be less than comfy.

It will
snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
thrust to perform.


Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.


As proven by some spectacularly one sided battles won by the underdog..


Bertie

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.

wrote in
:

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing
when they start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a
different direction to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.


Tha's it, still, i's as colse as you're going to get 'til they invent a
time machine!

Bertie

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 20:36:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.

I enjoy the show, but it's occasionally obvious that the writers don't have an
aviation background. You get subtle misuses of terminology, sometimes. I
suspect that the on-camera interviewees have no say in how the rest of the show
is presented.

I think they sometimes "compress" maneuvers; pack them into a tighter geographic
area to increase the dramatic effect. What bugs me more is that A) They
sometimes get the physical shapes of the aircraft wrong, and B) They get the
national markings wrong on the aircraft.

The worst cases of A) have been the depiction of WWI aircraft, especially SPADs.
The landing gear seems to flip around...sometimes the forward legs are vertical
and the aft are slanted, and other times it's the other way around.

For B), they especially seem to lose track of where the US national insignia go.
Sometimes, you see the star-and-bar on the upper surfaces of BOTH wings, other
times it's on both the upper and lower surfaces of the left wing only. They
also often get the proportions wrong. I've seen problems with other country's
aircraft, too, especially German planes.

While the above make me grind my teeth a bit when it happens, I do like the
program. It's interesting to compare the technological sophistication of the
two-hour pilot (first aired about 2-3 years ago) vs. the shows they're doing
now.

Ron Wanttaja

Snap Roll.

I can't find the maneuver as it was depicted in the show either in my
Aerobat manual or in Neil William's book.

The snap roll in the Aerobat manual is what I was thinking of when
Bertie mentioned snap roll -- essentially an accelerated spin in the
direction of flight which involves inversion about the longitudinal
axis. Maybe there are other versions of snap rolls that don't "invert"
you about the longitudinal axis. I dunno.

Let me describe the P51 maneuver this way: Imagine a car driving along
a gentle curve being chased by another car -- the first car hits a
patch of ice and does a rapid 360, recovering in the same direction as
it started.

That's pretty much what the plane did (although it climbed some during
whatever kind of stall this was). Anyway now imagine the headlights of
the spinning car are machine guns: as the spinning car gets to about
270 degrees from original heading and the chasing car is starting to
go past the guns start to fire, continuing to fire as the first car
spins back to its orginal heading, nailing the second car the whole
way as it goes by.

The P51 was never "upside down" as you'd expect in a snap roll. Maybe
a spin out?

Bang -- down went the 109.

Speaking of airframes coming apart, I don't recall ever reading about
such things happening in WWII dogfights. It seems it would given the
complexity and fear of the situation. Did it happen much? Maybe that
kind of thing wasn't reported because it's not exactly a heroic end to
an aircraft / pilot.

I understand disintegration was far more common in WWI.