Medium performance gliders

I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

I think the answer depends on how much you fly in each of the first 3
years. And on how quickly you get comfortable with getting away from
the field. And who you fly with.

You could fly low hours for 3 years and still feel challenged, but if
you have the spare time to fly a lot you might get frustrated in your
second season. And local conditions affect that, look at what fun they
have with 1-26's on the ridge!

If your buddy has a better ship, then you will not be happy as he
leaves you behind every flight.

I know one who shared/rented a PW5, had some good flights and moved
along to higher performance because he could not get far. And another
who thought an ASW19 would be great for many years... and know is
'kind of' looking because he can get left behind on occasion.

So, lots of factors. I had great fun for many years in a 1:34 ship,
but I bumped into a wall when trying to get much over 300K in my local
conditions. But I never lost a penny on resale. So it was
inexpensive.

I am not saying don't plan on a season or two of lower performance,
that will certainly make you a better pilot on weak days. But DO pick
a ship you know you can resell quickly when the bug bites! as I know
it will!

Good luck!



On Mar 8, 11:18 am, wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

On Mar 8, 5:04*pm, wrote:
SNIP
And local conditions affect that, look at what fun they
have with 1-26's on the ridge!
snip

Ridge flying was great to start with, now sharing our ridge with too
many other gliders and on some days paragliders makes being somewhere
else a highly desirable thing...

wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks
Oh my. Did you *mean* to start another religious war?

The one word answer to your question, "do [PW5, L33, and other similar
performance] type of gliders have enough performance to not cause
frustration in the beginner cross country pilot?" is "Yes."

A slightly longer answer is, "Yes,but...the devil is in the details."
Details such as 'who' Joe Pilot as a person is, where/terrain-over-which
s/he soars, personal goals (short term ones aren't necessarily long[er]
term ones), who Joe Pilot will become after a few seasons of seasoning.
Naysayers will be happy to cite Chapter and Verse (complete with
charts and graphs) 'proving' their view is correct *and* the only one of
any real value. Lowlifes such as 1-26 drivers (WARNING: dry humor
nearby!!!), may beg to differ.

As to your question:
would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

that - to me - is unanswerable, so ripe as it is with imponderables,
'plicit' (e.g. 'avg pilot,' 'few years,' 'itch to trade sooner') and
implicit.

Writing as one who's followed the 1-26-'high-performance 15-meter' path
(at a time your intermediate-performance-referenced gliders didn't
exist), I never felt (and don't now feel) any of my glider time was
wasted or misdirected. I've learned valuable lessons from each ship
type flown - & flew/fly every single seater XC (that being what I most
enjoy). I learned the basics of safe XC in 1-26s, and enjoyed every
second (including the frustrating, stuck becuzza insuffient L/D ones!).

IMHO, a valid argument can be made lower/intermediate performance ships
permit/encourage/make-necessary the (relatively low-stress/cost)
accumulation of off-field assessment/landing skills, which (unarguably,
in my view) are things every wannabe XC soaring pilot needs. I've seen
a whole lot more people enter (and leave) the sport for reasons related
to insufficient XC skills (e.g. fear, accident cost [imagined and
real]), than I have enter & leave for insufficient ship performance
reasons. At the (very real) risk of erring through oversimplification,
when the hassle of retrieves grows wearisome, is as good an indicator as
any of an individual's growing off-field competency and 'readiness' for
a longer-legged ship. Sure, there's an obvious paradox/contradiction
there, but would you rather ding a lowish-dollar toy, or a
faster-landing, higher-energy, considerably more expensive toy, due to
off-field ignorance and general inexperience? Make no mistake - the
potential for 'dings' is part of transferring 'book XC knowledge' into
'actual XC knowledge.' Safe XC is a matter of identifying (ideally,
beforehand), and learning to effectively deal with stresses (not fully
comprehensible until experienced as solo PIC).

Quoting from some unremembered Greek soaring pilot: "Soaring Pilot -
know thyself!"

Any ship purchased in such light will serve you and your needs well.
Should your druthers change through experience, any such ship can be
resold for pretty much what you paid for it (so long as you've been a
good steward of it).

Have fun along the way!

Regards,
Bob - with but one fabric 1-26 'ding' to my OFL credit - W.

When I went through that phase the "medium performance" glider was the
SGS 1-34. I enjoyed the ship. If the glider had been easier to
assemble/disassemble, I'd have purchased one or a SGS 1-35.

It never really bothered me that I wasn't covering the miles others were
in their ASW-19/20, LS-whatever, or SH whatever. I was too busy
learning how to fly cross country. One of our club members has a L-33
and seems to really enjoy it. There are a couple of Russias on the
field and their owners seem to enjoy them.

More than the performance, you'll get frustrated with difficulty
handling a glider on the ground. Look for a glider with a trailer and
support equipment that makes it reasonably easy to assemble and handle
the glider. You'll appreciate it when you are disassembling in a field
after dark. Been there, done that. As have almost everyone on this
newsgroup.

Dave

wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

snip
More than the performance, you'll get frustrated with difficulty
handling a glider on the ground. *Look for a glider with a trailer and
support equipment that makes it reasonably easy to assemble and handle
the glider. *You'll appreciate it when you are disassembling in a field
after dark. *Been there, done that. *As have almost everyone on this
newsgroup.

Dave


I have to second this statement. People kept telling me how hard the
1-26 was to assemble. With some work on the trailer and ground
equipment these same people were always amazed that I could go from
driving up to climbing into to cockpit in less than 25 minutes.

My current airplane an HP16T can be assembled to flight status in less
than 15 minutes.

Brian

I have been fortunate in owning 3 gliders for many years - a
DG800B, Stemme S10 VT and a SparrowHawk. These 3
aircraft are the extremes. Also until very recently I flew club
ships such a a 1-34. Pegasus, Grob 102 and 103, DG 1000
etc. Why did I do that? Convenience! Rather than getting
one of my machines out Soar Minden would just place me
in their machine and off I would go. So what am I implying?
I find almost any glider enjoyable to fly and base each
flying experience on whether I have used the limitations
of that machine to its fullest.
I have probably got more fun out of the SparrowHawk than
all the other machines put together. Is it the highest
performance glider? NO! Then why do like it so much.
Because it is such a pleasure to fly, light, precise and
with no bad habits. I can totally cross the
controls and it kinda says to me why are you doing that
I am going to partially ignore you. The DG goes into a
very fast and aggressive spin when I do that.
Unless it is important to you to break records, get badges
and be super serious about competitions almost any glider
that does not have bad habits can be most enjoyable.
Remember it is the gray matter that counts so much
more than the machine. I get much pleasure releasing at
1000 feet agl while the motor heads go to 3500 feet agl
to switch off their motors and on most days I keep up
with them with the SparrowHawk. Good luck in your
selection.
Dave

On 8 Mar, 18:42, Dave Rolley wrote:

More than the performance, you'll get frustrated with difficulty
handling a glider on the ground. Look for a glider with a trailer and
support equipment that makes it reasonably easy to assemble and handle
the glider. You'll appreciate it when you are disassembling in a field
after dark. Been there, done that. As have almost everyone on this
newsgroup.

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I like the Pirat. With one (strong)
person who knows what s/he's doing I can go from trailer to flight in
under fifteen minutes, and I have derigged - approaching snowstorm -
in five minutes flat.

Ian

That depends ! "Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
Fly contests ? (handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
Mind landing out more ? (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. You would struggle more and tend to land out more. I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 there is a whole
range of price/performance points. You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

On Mar 8, 4:45*pm, toad wrote:
That depends ! *"Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
* *Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
* *Fly contests ? *(handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
* *Mind landing out more ? * (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? * One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. *If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. *You would struggle more and tend to land out more. *I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. *You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 *there is a whole
range of price/performance points. *You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

David Stevenson placed second in the USA in the OLC for the year
2007. His longest flights were in a K6E. Nuff said...
Finger
Z2