Talk me out of this...

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:43:34 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

So that $15.2K is for a remanufactured engine or to remanufacture _your_
engine?? Cause I thought doing the latter (tearing it down and
replacing most of the parts) was the 'usual' method, and I thought (had
been told) that around $10K for everything for a 235 was about right.
(No, not told by the FBO that's selling the plane.)

Factoryengines.com lists O-235s for 15.2k, 17.9k, and 22.5k (overhaul,
remanufactured, and new respectively). Plus, you will have install
costs and have accessories to overhaul or replace. You could hit $20k
easily for an installed overhauled engine.

Factoryengines usually has pretty good prices, but I was surprised
about the $15k for a O-235 overhaul. I have a O-360 in my Cherokee,
and its overhaul is only $13.8k.

Regarding the differences between overhauls - I'm not an expert at
this by any means, but here's my take...

Overhauled engine: Engine parts are replaced or reworked as necessary
to be within overhaul limits. You need to be careful about what type
of overhaul is specified. There are two main kinds of overhauls,
service limits, and new limits. Service limits are the absolute
minimums as specified by the engine manufacturer (a bad idea in my
opinion). There are also overhauls to new limits, ie the components
of the engine have the same tolerances as a new engine. Either way,
the engine comes out with the same logbook, and total time is not
reset. It is however 0 hours since major overhaul.

Blueprinted engines: There are speciality shops that match/balance
components to provide a smoother and more powerful engine. These
typically cost more than a regular overhaul, and perhaps more than a
remanufactured engine. Regardless, the engine will not be zero timed.
It is essentially an overhaul to super-specifications.

Remanufactured. Engine components are reworked/replaced to new
limits. Engine is issued a new logbook and is 0 TT / 0 SMOH. Many
question the value of the reman besides having a zerotimed logbook.

New engine: This the easy one. It is brand new from Lycoming. O TT,
0 TSMOH.

Avweb has a good article on engine overhauls:
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182826-1.html

-Nathan

Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, come in here and teach this foundling about the Grapes of
Wrath.

Jim



Paul Folbrecht
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-But I can't seem to get autogas at most airports.



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

So that $15.2K is for a remanufactured engine or to remanufacture _your_
engine?? Cause I thought doing the latter (tearing it down and
replacing most of the parts) was the 'usual' method, and I thought (had
been told) that around $10K for everything for a 235 was about right.

That outfit will sell you an overhauled engine for $15.2K. You will have to
remove yours, install theirs, and send them yours as a "core". You re-use all the
old peripherals, such as the carb, alternator, etc.. There are lots of extra
goodies that you should replace at this time, such as the cooling baffle material.

Now, an overhauled engine is one in which the engine is disassembled, every part
is checked to make sure it meets the specs for *return to service*, and the engine
is put back together with any part that doesn't meet those specs replaced with one
that is *serviceable*. A remanufactured engine is one in which every part meets the
specs for a *new* part, not just a *serviceable* one. A new engine is just that.

What you're describing is generally referred to as a "field overhaul". There are
pluses and minuses to doing it this way. If the mech is good and you opt for
replacing unserviceable parts with new ones, you can wind up with a better engine
than swapping for a major shop overhauled engine, but if you do that, it'll likely
cost you in the 15K range anyway.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
link.net...
Wow, Chris, we could've ended up there together. :-) MTW is where we
went for lunch yesterday.

Yeah, but my instructor would never stop for lunch...

And, as for the weather, I can't say you were
being overly cautious, cause it was indeed MVFR at times. Well,
ATW-MTW turned out to be not bad (around 6 miles in haze most of the
way, cig about 2500agl), but back to MKE I hit several bad spots. I had
to go to 1500agl over OSH and considered landing right there for a
moment, but it got better shortly thereafter. (This was about 4PM.)

Hmm.. We started out around 4, and the ceilings were already down to 1200' -
we didn't get more than 1000' agl the entire flight. (well, we didn't really
try to, either, just held 2000 MSL.)
6 miles visibility sure ain't much at that height. Got a nice spooky view
of Holy Hill in the haze though.

Do run up there sometime and visit Joe's, across from the airport. Well
worth it.

~Paul

Will have to do that - on my SOLO x-country. :P

Have you even asked an insurance company for a quote?
That might be a sobering experience with your hours. Also, if financed, the
bank wont just finance any amount, they'll figure a value they'll work off
and if the sellers asking too much, you'll come up with the difference.

I almost did something like this right after I got my CFI, a C152, about
half this much (but in 1983), but I was going to have it in a flying club
and instruct in it. Even then I had doubts and didnt, and glad I didnt as
the flying industry started sliding right after that.

You may be average FAA size NOW, don't mean you'll stay that way, or your
wife/girlfriend/friends. Kind of like buying a computer, reach a little
further than you think you need NOW and you'll probably thank yourself
later.

As far as this hangar throw-in, see how much they'd lower the price if
that's deleted. It's a trainer, it's probably fairly beat-up, being outside
won't hurt it much more. I'm betting they wont lower the price at all. If
not, then just turn and leave - it's a scam.

And as far as the advice on a four seater, keep in mind most of the ones
mentioned really are 2+2's. More room to recline back, throw a few things
in the back, not overlap shoulders too much with the person on the right
side, etc. But at least with those you can work towards your IFR, and build
up hours in something a little faster and more comfortable.

My advice: RENT. Buying was the best thing I ever did, but it doesnt work
for every situation.

Chris

Have you even asked an insurance company for a quote?

Of course. Do you think I'm just some recently licensed pilot who
thought about buying the first airplane he saw for sale and asked a
bunch of people on the Internet if he should do it or not?

AOPA quoted me a bit under $600 for hull & liability which was much
lower than I was expecting.

That might be a sobering experience with your hours. Also, if financed, the
bank wont just finance any amount, they'll figure a value they'll work off
and if the sellers asking too much, you'll come up with the difference.

If I bought it I'd be paying cash.

You may be average FAA size NOW, don't mean you'll stay that way, or your

I pretty much plan on it. Bodybuilding/fitness is another interest of
mine. I'm sure as heck not gonna gain 40lb of blubber in the next year
or two, anyway.

wife/girlfriend/friends. Kind of like buying a computer, reach a little
further than you think you need NOW and you'll probably thank yourself
later.

That strategy definitely works well for computers.

As far as this hangar throw-in, see how much they'd lower the price if
that's deleted. It's a trainer, it's probably fairly beat-up, being outside
won't hurt it much more. I'm betting they wont lower the price at all. If
not, then just turn and leave - it's a scam.

It actually looks surprisingly good. They've had it in the hangar the
last couple times I've been there working on it and the exterior does
look really good.

And as far as the advice on a four seater, keep in mind most of the ones
mentioned really are 2+2's. More room to recline back, throw a few things
in the back, not overlap shoulders too much with the person on the right
side, etc. But at least with those you can work towards your IFR, and build
up hours in something a little faster and more comfortable.

The 2-seat vs. 4-seat question is one of the most important for me right
now. And I am heavily leaning (still) towards the former. 4 seats
would be very nice, indeed, when I want them, but I need to be pragmatic
here. I don't need them and won't use them most of the time.

Thanks for the comments.

~Paul


My advice: RENT. Buying was the best thing I ever did, but it doesnt work
for every situation.

Chris

If we compare a 152 to a 150, the 152 has a better engine (Lycoming) and
slightly better performance. However, the 150 has cheaper parts cost and a
lower purchase price giving a lower TCO. I find 152's overpriced at the
best of times and usually in worse shape than the 150's. Advantage, 150.

I priced some 150s on aerotrader and you're sure as heck right. As a
matter of fact I think right now a 150 might be my best bet.


Other under-valued planes to look at would be the Grumman AA1, Beech
Musketeer (parts are expensive but rarely needed), Piper Tri-Pacer or Colt
(fabric so hangar recommended), Cherokee (even a two seater), or even a low
time Tomahawk (bad rep by people who've never flown them). Good examples of
all of these can be found for under 25K.

My advise would be to sit back, let this one go, leave the nest (FBO), and
check the classifieds. Not just the web based ones either. A lot of
aviation is still run by old timers that have no interest in computers at
all, so you'd be missing a large portion of possible deals. So when you go
for that next $100 hamburger, ask around about what's for sale.

being overly cautious, cause it was indeed MVFR at times. Well,
ATW-MTW turned out to be not bad (around 6 miles in haze most of the
way, cig about 2500agl), but back to MKE I hit several bad spots. I had
to go to 1500agl over OSH and considered landing right there for a
moment, but it got better shortly thereafter. (This was about 4PM.)


Hmm.. We started out around 4, and the ceilings were already down to 1200' -
we didn't get more than 1000' agl the entire flight. (well, we didn't really
try to, either, just held 2000 MSL.)
6 miles visibility sure ain't much at that height. Got a nice spooky view
of Holy Hill in the haze though.

Are you accusing me of scud-running just two weeks after getting my
license?! Damnit.. you're right. The cigs were low. Hey, I got
briefings out of both Timmerman and Appleton and did NOT get "VFR not
recommended" either time (I would never not heed such a warning- never,
at this stage of experience, anyway). And both times they told me again
things looked to be "clearing up" which they most certainly did not.

I have actually been thinking about that whole experience quite a bit.
I always thought briefers would be erring on the side of caution but not
this time- sometimes the weather just does not do what's expected. Of
course all those low cigs and haze were completely unforecast for the
whole day. It was supposed to be clear below 12,000' as of midnight
Saturday. But the wind was as forecast.


Do run up there sometime and visit Joe's, across from the airport. Well
worth it.

~Paul


Will have to do that - on my SOLO x-country. :P

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

... and the exterior does look really good.

My personal nickname for my old 150 was "The Whore", because it was painted up
real pretty but had been heavily used.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

Two LOLs in a row here.. G.R., you're as funny as the Onion.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:


Paul Folbrecht wrote:

... and the exterior does look really good.


My personal nickname for my old 150 was "The Whore", because it was painted up
real pretty but had been heavily used.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.