Interior Upgrade Question

Nathan Young wrote:



The pilot can replace the interior of the plane. There are burn
requirements for the materials used, I think they are spelled out
somewhere in the FARs.

FAR 23.853

Daniel Gram wrote:

The pilot can replace the interior of the plane. There are burn
requirements for the materials used, I think they are spelled out
somewhere in the FARs.

-Nathan


Most good upholstery shops can get FAA approved materials and for not too
much more cost. It's much about weight and toxic fumes when burned. CYA
Dan



The requirement in general is that the materials be fire retardent. If you
have a CAR 3 certificated aircraft, then there is NO requirement to use FAA
approved or tested materials.

If you have a FAR23 certificated machine, then you will have to use approved
materials. There are lots of approved materials out there and even if not, if
you have a resistant material, having it burn tested isn't too involved (other
than the charge).

Ron Natalie wrote:



The requirement in general is that the materials be fire retardent. If
you
have a CAR 3 certificated aircraft, then there is NO requirement to use FAA
approved or tested materials.

You may be lucky enough to have a FSDO that will allow that. I have
talked to 5 different FSDO's about new upholstery, because originally I
was told that too and they all say the same thing. Any new upholstery
in any aircraft must meet FAR 23.853.



If you have a FAR23 certificated machine, then you will have to use
approved
materials. There are lots of approved materials out there and even if
not, if
you have a resistant material, having it burn tested isn't too involved
(other
than the charge).

It's actually difficult to find material that doesn't meet the spec from
pretty much any upholstery shop. So in the end the point is moot.

There's an auto upholstery shop in town that is very well regarded and while
talking with him regarding my car I got to wondering if I could pull out my
Cherokee seats and have him leatherize them. FAR 43.100 states pilots can:

(11) Repair upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit
when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or
operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary
structure of the aircraft.

Hmmmm. Does "repair upholstery" cover "replace with leather" (or pleather
for that matter)? Does taking out a seat constitute "disassembly of a
primary structure"? I'm pretty sure other people have done this but I was
just wondering how "legal" it is.


-Brian
N33431


I had just been considering the same thing recently. Thanks for
posting the question Brian. And thanks to all who answered.

But I have a couple more that maybe someone out there knows the answer
to. My recently purchased Cherokee 180 is an older model with the
original furniture inside.

Instead of just recovering the seats, I'm considering replacing the
original Cherokee seats with newer models. I'm wondering what the FAA
would say if I wanted to take seats from a newer model Piper (with
height adjustment and nice extras) and put them in my Cherokee. If
the floor rails are the same, it should be a plug'n'play change. Of
course, the weights would have to be calculated to reflect weight
changes. But does anyone know if the FAA would allow this if they
came from another certified plane to my Cherokee???

Come to think of it, I'd love to change the yokes in my Cherokee while
I'm at it. Get some newer models instead of these original bow-tie
yokes. And I guess same question would apply -- would they let me
take from one certified model to another???

Thanks guys.


Chuck
N7398W

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:04:42 GMT, Chuck wrote:

I had just been considering the same thing recently. Thanks for
posting the question Brian. And thanks to all who answered.

But I have a couple more that maybe someone out there knows the answer
to. My recently purchased Cherokee 180 is an older model with the
original furniture inside.

Instead of just recovering the seats, I'm considering replacing the
original Cherokee seats with newer models. I'm wondering what the FAA
would say if I wanted to take seats from a newer model Piper (with
height adjustment and nice extras) and put them in my Cherokee. If
the floor rails are the same, it should be a plug'n'play change. Of
course, the weights would have to be calculated to reflect weight
changes. But does anyone know if the FAA would allow this if they
came from another certified plane to my Cherokee???

Don't know about the legalities, but as someone else has stated, get
it through a couple annual cycles and I'm sure it wouldn't be a
problem.

Come to think of it, I'd love to change the yokes in my Cherokee while
I'm at it. Get some newer models instead of these original bow-tie
yokes. And I guess same question would apply -- would they let me
take from one certified model to another???
There is actually an AD on the "bowtie" yokes you have. Every 100
hours they need to be inspected. If you convert to the Ram Horn type
yoke the AD goes away. It's a pricey venture though. There shouldn't
be a problem putting yokes in from another (Piper) aircraft as long as
they are the correct type, but I personally like the bow ties, and
since the AD isn't that labor intensive, would live with it until one
cracked (which may be a really long time). I'd rather spend that
money on gas.

HTH.
z

In article ,
Chuck wrote:

Come to think of it, I'd love to change the yokes in my Cherokee while
I'm at it. Get some newer models instead of these original bow-tie
yokes. And I guess same question would apply -- would they let me
take from one certified model to another???

I don't know about the seats. But the old bowtie yokes can indeed
be replaced by the new rams horn yokes. Look at the control wheel
AD that applies to the bow-tie yokes. Notice that a terminating action
is to replace them with the rams horn yokes. (I recently did that to
my cherokee 140).

--
Bob Noel

For aircraft built under FAR 23 and the materials used for any
covering, FAR 23.853 is very clear. You have to test it to FAR 23
Appendix F. Commercial and automotive materials may have been tested,
but not to meet that FAR. There is no distinction between natural or
man-made material. If it goes in a Type Certificated FAR 23 aircraft
it gets tested. CAR 4b certified aircraft probably have to meet a
lower standard, but why take a chance? I don't work in the small
aircraft world, but I'm sure there are many shops out there that can
do reputable work with proper materials and sign off what they do at a
fair price.

If I were to accomplish an Annual Inspection on an aircraft that has
been re-covered, I would review the burn tests and log entries. No
required burn test documents and log entries and it is unairworthy.
So it looks like you have some options. Try it on the cheap and risk
your life and the probability of having to re-do it properly at
annual time (on a Part 23 aircraft) or doing it right the first time.
The other option is homebuilding. You are free to put in materials
that may kill you and do the work yourself, but at least you die
legally.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:09:22 -0600, Don Hammer wrote:
If I were to accomplish an Annual Inspection on an aircraft that has
been re-covered, I would review the burn tests and log entries. No
required burn test documents and log entries and it is unairworthy.
So it looks like you have some options. Try it on the cheap and risk
your life and the probability of having to re-do it properly at
annual time (on a Part 23 aircraft) or doing it right the first time.
The other option is homebuilding. You are free to put in materials
that may kill you and do the work yourself, but at least you die
legally.


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

"Don Hammer" wrote in message
...
If it goes in a Type Certificated FAR 23 aircraft
it gets tested. CAR 4b certified aircraft probably have to meet a
lower standard, but why take a chance?

I didn't notice all of that regulation helping the swiss air passengers too
much.

If I were to accomplish an Annual Inspection on an aircraft that has
been re-covered, I would review the burn tests and log entries.

Yikes! This is the very reason I don't have my local FBO do my annuals.


-Brian
N33431

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:47:47 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"
wrotD:


"Don Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
If it goes in a Type Certificated FAR 23 aircraft
it gets tested. CAR 4b certified aircraft probably have to meet a
lower standard, but why take a chance?

I didn't notice all of that regulation helping the swiss air passengers too
much.

If I were to accomplish an Annual Inspection on an aircraft that has
been re-covered, I would review the burn tests and log entries.

Yikes! This is the very reason I don't have my local FBO do my annuals.


-Brian
N33431


Brian,

My experience is with large transport category Part 25 aircraft and
the burn test requirements are much more severe than Part 23. Read
25.853 sometime. It costs $5000 to burn test each material installed
in a Gulfstream or other transport category aircraft. There is one
reason we have to do all that and it is because a whole plane load of
people died on the ground from smoke inhalation on Air Canada in 1979.
Everybody was alive when the aircraft first touched down and if I
remember right, 60 or so died in their seats. See AD 79-08-05 R1 for
the reason. Ever wonder why you get the briefing on every commercial
flight about lavatory smoke detectors even though they don't allow
smoking? You wouldn't believe the steps it takes to certify an
entertainment system now and it is because of Swissair. Every
accident is a learning experience that usually results in regulatory
change.

I am an A&P with IA and haven't done an annual in over thirty years.
I like small aircraft and fly them all the time, but I refuse to put
my livelihood on the line because the owners of small aircraft such as
N33431 decide to sneak something by me that wasn't legal because they
are too cheap to do things right. Worse yet, can you imagine how any
mechanic would feel if someone died in your aircraft because he missed
something on your inspection? Would you be able to sleep well if the
next owner of your aircraft dies because of something you did? What
would you say to the family and jury at the trial? Think you won't
have a fire? Swissair or Air Canada didn't think they would either.

Why do you feel you have the right to put anyone in that position and
advise others to do the same? Proper maintenance is part of ownership
and if you can't afford to maintain the aircraft, then sell it.

I may be overly sensitive about fire issues, but once you've had smoke
in the cockpit, late at night, at 50W over the Atlantic - trust me,
you will remember it.

Enough said - down off the soap box.