What engine would you like?

Grooooaaan. Oh what the hell. Cool. Can you find some use for the 4 on
the floor?
I bet when it's done, it will go at least 300 knots. Damn aircraft
companies. If only they'd put in a 'vette engine. Must be in cahoots
with the oil companies. Let us know when you get it flying. Man... a
'vette!! Damn cool. I'm going to put a HARLEY engine in my
experimental! Top THAT! BRBR


http://predatoraviation.com/performance.html

Here's a liquid cooled conversion for Lycoming engines.

http://www.cooljugs.com/about.shtml

We're flying dinosaurs, you have to admit it.

Magnetos belong on lawnmowers, not aircraft.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Go up in a small GA single engine. Turn the radios off. Turn the
alternator off. Turn the Master off. Turn one magneto off. Note that
the engine keeps running. THAT's why they use magnetos.
I do agree that electronic ignition would be a good idea. The one's I
have seen revert to a mechanical system if electrical is lost. But you
cannot handprop them. And they add complexity and weight. There are
tradeoffs.

Doug wrote:

Go up in a small GA single engine. Turn the radios off. Turn the
alternator off. Turn the Master off. Turn one magneto off. Note that
the engine keeps running. THAT's why they use magnetos.
I do agree that electronic ignition would be a good idea. The one's I
have seen revert to a mechanical system if electrical is lost. But you
cannot handprop them. And they add complexity and weight. There are
tradeoffs.


An electronic ignition can also be designed to run off power from a
generator that isn't dependent on the rest of the electrical system.
The reason this isn't done in cars is that the electrical system is at
least as reliable as the rest of the engine so there is no gain to be had.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
: An electronic ignition can also be designed to run off power from a
: generator that isn't dependent on the rest of the electrical system.
: The reason this isn't done in cars is that the electrical system is at
: least as reliable as the rest of the engine so there is no gain to be had.

Gas-turbine engine FADEC usually use their tachometer generator as a backup
source of electrical power. If you did this for a piston engine, it still
wouldn't let you handprop - the engine has to be turning quite a few RPM to
get any generator output. Perhaps the common setup amoung experimentals with
one electronic ignition and one mag has evolved out of experience.
--
Aaron C.

On 22 Jan 2005 05:10:07 -0800, "Doug"
wrote:

Go up in a small GA single engine. Turn the radios off. Turn the
alternator off. Turn the Master off. Turn one magneto off. Note that
the engine keeps running. THAT's why they use magnetos.
I do agree that electronic ignition would be a good idea. The one's I
have seen revert to a mechanical system if electrical is lost. But you
cannot handprop them. And they add complexity and weight. There are
tradeoffs.

You're wasting your breath.

I maintain a couple of new/old mid-size biz jets. When it comes right
down to it, all five electrical buses (DC and AC), all five batteries
(2 main. 3 emrgency), and the primary hydraulic system can be tits-up
and it still flies just fine. The primary flight controls/trim are
strictly mechanical, the isolated manual aux hydraulic system has the
capability to drop the gear and operate the secondary flight controls,
and two accumulators (one totally isolated from the main system)
provide braking action. The engines operate manually to within 5%
(give or take) margins provided by the failed engine computers.

It's old, crude, but it works. (emphasis on the period)

There probably aren't many people that hang around this group that
have been around the Porsche aircraft engine. It was designed with
"adequate" airframe electrical back-ups for it's systems. A very good
friend of mine experienced a total charging system failure (Mooney
version) and had to find a place to land before the batteries went
dead. It probably wouldn't have been as much of an issue if he hadn't
been crossing the Atlantic at the time.

Arguing new vs. old GA aircraft engines is like arguing politics.
Having spent half my life maintaining the "old" ones, you would think
that I would have as much cause to dislike them as anybody. Thing is,
nobody has come up with a suitable replacement-and a lot of people
have tried.

Would like to learn more about the Thielert engines, but will probably
never have the opportunity. I know that millions of dollars and many
years were spent refining the Orenda V-8, how many of them are out
there operating?

Regards;

TC

wrote:
I know that millions of dollars and many
years were spent refining the Orenda V-8, how many of them are out
there operating?



And we also know how successful the Porsche PFM 3200 Mooneys were in
the late 80's - early 90's too !!!

Aaron Coolidge wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
: An electronic ignition can also be designed to run off power from a
: generator that isn't dependent on the rest of the electrical system.
: The reason this isn't done in cars is that the electrical system is at
: least as reliable as the rest of the engine so there is no gain to be had.

Gas-turbine engine FADEC usually use their tachometer generator as a backup
source of electrical power. If you did this for a piston engine, it still
wouldn't let you handprop - the engine has to be turning quite a few RPM to
get any generator output. Perhaps the common setup amoung experimentals with
one electronic ignition and one mag has evolved out of experience.

Yes, that is a reasonable short-term solution. However, my point is
that there is nothing magic about a magneto ignition that couldn't be
designed into an electronic ignition if there was sufficient demand. It
wouldn't be hard to build a small permanent magnet generator that could
generate enough juice to operate an electronic ignition system. I doubt
there is sufficient demand yet to warrant this as there are other
reasonable solutions such as you mention above or having a small backup
battery.


Matt

Doug,

Turn one magneto off.


That's an ancient solution to a problem that could and can be solved
otherwise. Witness the Thielert engine.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

And we also know how successful the Porsche PFM 3200 Mooneys were in
the late 80's - early 90's too !!!


And we all knwo the reason for that was not primarily the reliability
of the engine.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Matt Whiting wrote:

..... However, my point is
that there is nothing magic about a magneto ignition that couldn't be
designed into an electronic ignition if there was sufficient demand.
It
wouldn't be hard to build a small permanent magnet generator that
could
generate enough juice to operate an electronic ignition system. I
doubt
there is sufficient demand yet to warrant this as there are other
reasonable solutions such as you mention above or having a small
backup
battery.

Actually, such a system does exist - it's called a P-Mag. It's made by
"Emagair" - see www.emagair.com. I have one on my COZY MKIV. As long
as the engine is turning more than 700 RPM, the generator will produce
enough juice to keep itself firing. Works great - I've turned off the
master switch and run the engine just like it's on two mags. Except
that the EI will advance the timing based on RPM and MP, produces a much
hotter spark so it's MUCH easier to start in cold weather, and I get a
few % better gas mileage.

Not only that, but with respect to whomever said that you can't handprop
a plane with electronic ignition, that's only partially true. As long
as the electrical system works, you can handprop a plane with the
Emagair or Lightspeed systems - Klaus Savier does not have a starter on
his Vari-EZ with his Lightspeed ignition, and ONLY handprops. Although
I haven't tried it on my plane (O-360 with a 3-blade prop), Emagair
swears that they've handpropped on their system many times, and
advertise it as being a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

If someone was interested in not having an electrical system, they could
have a very small portable battery (The P-Mag draws less than 5A) for
starting to run the P-Mag until the engine was running over 700 RPM.
After that, the P-Mag is on it's own. Two P-Mags would give you all the
advantages of EI, with all the advantages of a Magneto (such as they
are).

Personally, I think the E-Mag and P-Mag systems will take over the
homebuilt EI market, and they're claiming that they're going to try to
get it certified.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2005