Rogue IFR

"Judah" wrote in message ...


Not if he's operating VFR. There are no clearances for entry of Class
D airspace by VFR aircraft in the US.

What about a transition clearance?

There ain't no such thing.

I stand corrected... Two-way radio communications must be established, but
a "clearance" is not required.

Somehow the difference momentarily eluded me... After all, if an ATC
authority can deny you the privilege of entering his/her airspace (either
by requesting that you "Remain Clear the Class Delta", or by not
acknowledging your tail number), it implies he is implicitly clearing you
into his airspace when acknowledging your tail number and not restricting
you from his airspace.

That said, technically speaking, you are correct. There is no VFR clearance
into Class D...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
...

What about a transition clearance?


It does not exist.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:57:43 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Judah" wrote in message ...


Not if he's operating VFR. There are no clearances for entry of Class
D airspace by VFR aircraft in the US.

What about a transition clearance?

There ain't no such thing.


So when the guys in the choppers call up Lebanon tower up here in NH
and request clearance through the class D airspace, they're just being
thoughtful?

Without that call, they'd be cruising through the traffic pattern at
500 feet unannounced. That's straight over the runways. It happens
fairly regularly, and they call in and ask permission every time.

What am I missing?

Corky Scott

"Corky Scott" wrote in message ...

So when the guys in the choppers call up Lebanon tower up here in NH
and request clearance through the class D airspace, they're just being
thoughtful?

Nope, they're just using the wrong terms. All you need to do wo enter the
class D airspace is this:

27K: Lebanon Tower, Navion 5327K
TWR: Navion 5327K, LebanonTower

Without that call, they'd be cruising through the traffic pattern at
500 feet unannounced. That's straight over the runways. It happens
fairly regularly, and they call in and ask permission every time.

What am I missing?

You're missing that it is not a clearance. All you need to be is in communication
with them. While it's generally accepted procedure to tell the tower what you're
doing, you're not asking their permission. If they need you to do otherwise, they
can instruct you.

"Judah" wrote in message
...

I stand corrected... Two-way radio communications must be established, but
a "clearance" is not required.

Somehow the difference momentarily eluded me... After all, if an ATC
authority can deny you the privilege of entering his/her airspace (either
by requesting that you "Remain Clear the Class Delta", or by not
acknowledging your tail number), it implies he is implicitly clearing you
into his airspace when acknowledging your tail number and not restricting
you from his airspace.

A clearance is an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of
preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed
under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. Clearances,
for the most part, imply separation. ATC does not separate VFR aircraft in
Class D airspace so a clearance is not required.

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...

So when the guys in the choppers call up Lebanon tower up here in NH
and request clearance through the class D airspace, they're just being
thoughtful?


No, they're just misusing the word "clearance".

When I go through Worcester's airspace going to and from FIT (MA), I call up them up and say
something like "Worcester tower, Cardinal 18738 is ten miles North, VFR Groton, transitioning your
airspace at 2,000". There response is "transition approved", not "cleared through".

Dave Reinhart


Corky Scott wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:57:43 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Judah" wrote in message ...


Not if he's operating VFR. There are no clearances for entry of Class
D airspace by VFR aircraft in the US.

What about a transition clearance?

There ain't no such thing.


So when the guys in the choppers call up Lebanon tower up here in NH
and request clearance through the class D airspace, they're just being
thoughtful?

Without that call, they'd be cruising through the traffic pattern at
500 feet unannounced. That's straight over the runways. It happens
fairly regularly, and they call in and ask permission every time.

What am I missing?

Corky Scott

Ron Natalie wrote:

If they need you to do otherwise, they can instruct you.

And if they want you to stay out, they will refuse to answer you.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft is within those limits.


Enroute radar? Do you mean Air Route Surveillance Radar? Why are we
suddenly limited to ARSR for discussion purposes? Please, Pete, tell us
about the capabilities of ATC radar.



Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the VFR target's
transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify for
that assumption.


It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then any
other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet
below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.



There was no such part.


Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something. That's
obviously incorrect.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then
any
other aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or
500 feet below the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.

ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within those
limits.

Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something.
That's
obviously incorrect.

Wow. With the "...about the VFR target" implied, your misunderstanding was
understandable, if a bit surprising. But with it being called out
explicitly to you, your ignorance is downright shocking.

Pete