JFK

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 at 19:52:09 in message
, Bob Noel
wrote:

But I would love to discuss this with someone who thinks
that honesty, integrity, and moral are not important characteristics
of the best leaders. I am very interested in what characteristics
they think make the best leaders (which, of course, also wouldn't
have any bearing on what actually does make the best leaders...
now my head hurts.)

This is way off topic.

But, I believe that there are many different kinds of leaders and those
suited to one task are not necessarily suited to another. A great leader
of an aircraft design team might be useless as a leader of soldiers or
running a big government department.

Regarding qualities of morality, honesty and integrity perhaps those
qualities are not unnecessary, but that just doing the job causes most
people to lose them. As we are all human (an assumption) anyone may
occasionally slip from their own standards of honesty and integrity even
though people operate from quite different base lines. Perhaps the
growth of ego and self importance follows from the corrupting nature of
power - which is not a new thought.

Some people can influence others strongly by the sheer strength of their
personalities. Personal experience has certainly showed me that there is
nothing more debilitating to any organisation than the strong
personality that is just plain wrong.

Perhaps no one who craves power can be trusted to use it?
--
David CL Francis

"Philip Sondericker" wrote in message
...
I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
were located in Texas.

LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built in
Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.

He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.

Ditto above.

"Mike Rhodes" wrote in message
...
Probably. I wonder what the rules were in the early 60's regarding blind
trusts, etc., for government officials.

For the record, to clarify my initial reply, I would not defend LBJ
politically, or Lady Bird. (I am not a democrat.) I was only trying
to point out the inherent weakness in the Asian commitment. As a
congressman who had a reputation as being pushy to get his way, Viet
Nam seems to be more of somebody else's war, (McNamara's, and the
military's), not his.

The military was against the war from the beginnings in the EARLY 60's.
McNamara ran it into the ground, but it was LBJ's war.

A blind trust was a notable factor in burying us into Viet Nam?

Excuse me?

"Mike Rhodes" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 02:55:11 -0600, Mike Rhodes
wrote:
I am a Reppublican, ("but" or "therefore") am against the venture
capitol in Iraq. Accusing Lady Bird is silly, except to screw up an
argument.

Talking to yourself?

Also, the activists of the civil rights battles of the 60's probably
found the Viet Nam distraction useful, if not crucial; regardless of
McGovern's policies. Who would say they wanted Viet Nam? Except
imperialistic, communist killing (in other countries, we're all
Americans here, (after that McCarthy)) conservatives? Oh, if they had
minded our home instead!

U.S. activity in Iraq is active imperialism, to save the Iraqis and
make a 'safe' area in the mid-east. It's quite a risk, I think. Too
much. Doing so only increases our susceptibility to terrorism. The
Arabs, (crazy or no), have a point, in hating our interference. It is
natural, and a big sacrifice (to the point of one's real manhood) to
accept it. Why keep them around, anyway?

Hey, only one person at a time can post in here while intoxicated. Get to
the back of the line.

in article , Tom S. at
wrote on 11/16/03 1:06 PM:


"Philip Sondericker" wrote in message
...
I think it gets LBJ's stamp. It was no coincidence that flight operations
were located in Texas.

LBJ, as probably the most corrupt president in our history, had it built in
Texas to pork barrel his buddies. That is pretty much beyond doubt.

Right. Hence my statement that it was no coincidence.

He also helped keep the Apollo program alive after
the fire, when a whole lot of influential people wanted it scrapped.

Ditto above.

Yep, it was pork barrel alright. That's why it gets LBJ's stamp. Get it?

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

Then how do you know their motives were different than what they actually
said?


I don't give a rat's ass about their motives or their statements. Their
actions indicate they weren't trying to do what was best for the people of
their countries.

"jim rosinski" wrote in message
om...

He was instrumental in preventing World War III. He started the
Vietnam War. He started the space program. If this doesn't count as
"getting much done", then I don't know what does.


The space program was started on Ike's watch.

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
news

Saved from what?


From Saddam.

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:eNMtb.162590$mZ5.1115214@attbi_s54...

At least they're not from a lack of it.


You are clearly not an intelligent person.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:41:36 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

The whole Berliner gaff is actually an urban legend. "Ich bin ein Berliner"
is grammatically correct.

I speak fluent German. What he said was, nominally, "I'm a jelly
donut". I bought them fresh in the Zurich Migros every week. One of my
roommates, a Berliner himself, confirmed it.

So there was
not tittering and no guffaws -- what he said was right.

Supportive Berliners knew what he meant, knew he was an American, knew
he was reaching out, and they all translated the gaffe into "Ich bin
Berliner", and cheered until their lungs contained only vacuum.

It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
solidarity with them.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card