pilots refuse to fly with gun loons onboard

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:34:30 GMT, "Morton Davis"
wrote:


"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots'
union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the
British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our
advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are
received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are
carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

Thosew were box cutters. Box cutters are rectangular metal devices wherein a
single-edged razor blade forms the blade. Carpet knives have fixed wooden
handles over a steel blade shank and have a 2" to 3" hooked, curved,
blade. That's only one thing you got wrong out of many.

Maybe you should have read the thread properly. I merely pointed out
what Shaun was obviously refering to when Bogart either didn't or
pretended not to understand.

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots' union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

Maybe you should have read the thread properly. I merely pointed out
what Shaun was obviously refering to when Bogart either didn't or
pretended not to understand. Incidentally, not everyone calls them
"box cutters" - the term was certainly unknown in the UK beforehand.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:43:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:25:21 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
m wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots' union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

No, I meant guys carrying Stanley Knifes, but I didn't want to
advertise the number one carpet cutting tool in the UK

You use box cutters to cut your carpeting? Rather thin carpets then?


We make carpets to support OUR weight

Shaun wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:43:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:


On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:25:21 +0000, Shaun
wrote:


On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:


On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:


On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:


On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
wrote:


On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:


On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:


"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots' union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

No, I meant guys carrying Stanley Knifes, but I didn't want to
advertise the number one carpet cutting tool in the UK

You use box cutters to cut your carpeting? Rather thin carpets then?



We make carpets to support OUR weight

You must have some big-ass box cutters over there!

--
Chris.
http://****france.com/

Vengeance is a hamburger that is eaten cold, writes Georges Dupuy in
Liberation.

No wonder the French military is a band of sissies, look at where they
get their stock from. (800k mpeg file.)
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/frenchfighters.mpeg

funny mp3
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/horserace.mp3

The new Three Stooge's
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/happyfamily.jpg

Two clowns.
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/groggyclown.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/nickclown.jpg

Groggy No-cite on the job site.
http://www.geocities.com/libassbug/gregatnicks.jpg

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:00:25 GMT, "Morton Davis"
wrote:


"Shaun" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots'
union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the
British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our
advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are
received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are
carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly
trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

No, I meant guys carrying Stanley Knifes, but I didn't want to
advertise the number one carpet cutting tool in the UK

Stanley knives? Made by Stanley Tools, of the USA? I think you'll find the
box cutters used on 9-11 to be about 1/1o the overall size. A box cutter is
about 5" long, by 1" wide, by 1/8" thick. Closed, it looks like a big stick
of chewing gum, but it holds a single-edged razorblade that is used as the
cutting blade. Box cutters are the weapon of choice for some teen gang
members. They're a nasty slashing weapon that can create nasty, gaping
wounds that are all the way to the bone.

"Stanley Knife" is pretty much a generic term in the UK for any heavy-
or medium-duty retractable (although some aren't) utility or craft
knife. It's one of those cases where the brand name that came to
prominence first becomes the generic, even when it's not appropriate.
E.g. Walkman, Frisbee, Hoover, etc.

"Box cutter" was a term unknown in the UK pre-11 Sept., and certainly
from the specific decription on Wikipedia, we don't have anything that
matches it exactly, certainly not in respect of using a single-edged
razor blade. In fact, that type of razor blade isn't even
particularly common here, either, since the double-edged type is more
prevalent. You will note that Wikipedia does say that a "Stanley
Knife" is the nearest equivalent in British English usage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-cutter_knife




--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:37:33 -0700, "Kevin McCue"
wrote:

Wanna bet your life that they wouldn't miss? I wouldn't. I'd rather deal
with the terrorist.
Since the Dept. of Homeland Insecurity seems to think that the
terrorist are likely trained ATP's how will the Air Marshal stop them when
they are locked behind that now reinforced, bullet proof cockpit door?

The only way a terrorist could get behind that locked, bullet proof
door is for someone to open it.
The British pliots (or rather, their union) seem to think that having
the pilots open that door is a really good idea.

--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"

Shaun wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:43:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:25:21 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
m wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline pilots' union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said: "Our advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances are received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

No, I meant guys carrying Stanley Knifes, but I didn't want to
advertise the number one carpet cutting tool in the UK

You use box cutters to cut your carpeting? Rather thin carpets then?


We make carpets to support OUR weight

Then you meant EXPLOSIVES!

Bill Funk wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:37:33 -0700, "Kevin McCue"
wrote:

Wanna bet your life that they wouldn't miss? I wouldn't. I'd rather deal
with the terrorist.
Since the Dept. of Homeland Insecurity seems to think that the
terrorist are likely trained ATP's how will the Air Marshal stop them when
they are locked behind that now reinforced, bullet proof cockpit door?

The only way a terrorist could get behind that locked, bullet proof
door is for someone to open it.
The British pliots (or rather, their union) seem to think that having
the pilots open that door is a really good idea.


"Candy-gram"

"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:00:25 GMT, "Morton Davis"
wrote:


"Shaun" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 02:32:14 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:25:04 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:06:08 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:12:56 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:06:55 GMT, " Bogart "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:50:49 -0000, "nick"
wrote:

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline
pilots'
union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on
board."

"Airline pilots should not take off with marshals on board, the
British
Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has said."

"Capt Granshaw defended pilots' right to take action and said:
"Our
advice
to pilots is that until adequate written and agreed assurances
are
received,
flight crew should not operate flights where sky marshals are
carried."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3357309.stm

Maybe you 'fraidy cats would like us to loan you some properly
trained
US Sky Marshals?

Are they as cowardly as the US passengers who were too scared to
deal
with four arabs armed with carpet knifes

What 4 Arabs armed with Carpet knives?

The ones on three out of four planes that took off one September
mornign a couple of years back

You mean the guys carrying BOX CUTTERS?

No, I meant guys carrying Stanley Knifes, but I didn't want to
advertise the number one carpet cutting tool in the UK

Stanley knives? Made by Stanley Tools, of the USA? I think you'll find
the
box cutters used on 9-11 to be about 1/1o the overall size. A box cutter
is
about 5" long, by 1" wide, by 1/8" thick. Closed, it looks like a big
stick
of chewing gum, but it holds a single-edged razorblade that is used as
the
cutting blade. Box cutters are the weapon of choice for some teen gang
members. They're a nasty slashing weapon that can create nasty, gaping
wounds that are all the way to the bone.

"Stanley Knife" is pretty much a generic term in the UK for any heavy-
or medium-duty retractable (although some aren't) utility or craft
knife. It's one of those cases where the brand name that came to
prominence first becomes the generic, even when it's not appropriate.
E.g. Walkman, Frisbee, Hoover, etc.

"Box cutter" was a term unknown in the UK pre-11 Sept., and certainly
from the specific decription on Wikipedia, we don't have anything that
matches it exactly, certainly not in respect of using a single-edged
razor blade. In fact, that type of razor blade isn't even
particularly common here, either, since the double-edged type is more
prevalent. You will note that Wikipedia does say that a "Stanley
Knife" is the nearest equivalent in British English usage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-cutter_knife

The single-edged razor blade is produced mainly for use in box cutters,
certain scrapers used in removing decals and paint-over on glass.
This is a box cutter: http://store6.yimg.com/I/olfablades_1750_89859 It
costs $2.00 and will open you up real good.

Box cutter replacement blade:
http://www.officedepot.com/pictures/...9611_sk_md.jpg Many newer box
cutters and utility knives use long, single-edged blades that can be snapped
off when the point gets dull or broken.
http://i22.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/a8/f3/7d_1.JPG

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/...e_Blade_Shop_T
ool_Accessories.jpg This is a USA Stanley knife blade. This is a Stanley
Utility Knife: http://www.officedepot.com/pictures/...0467_sk_md.jpg

It's quite a bit bigger, uses a different blade, but will also open you up
real good. Box cutters and Stanley knifes are used as slashing weapons. I
used to use Stanley utility knives to score aluminum coil sheeting so it
could be snapped apart to make facial coverings when I ran a sheet metal
brake.

-*MORT*-

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:51:54 GMT, "Scout"
wrote:


" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:27:22 GMT, "Scout"
wrote:


" Bogart " wrote in message
ws.com...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:28:59 +0000, Shaun
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:28:34 GMT, Mongo Jones
wrote:

In talk.politics.guns
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:44:42 GMT, Mongo Jones
wrote:

In talk.politics.guns Chris Morton wrote:

In article ,
nick
says...

"Some flights to the US could be grounded after the airline
pilots'
union
called on its members not to fly with armed sky marshals on
board."

Pizza loving anti-Semite points out that British pilots would
rather
fly into
buildings than have armed POLICE on board.

They're as big a bunch of netwits as Jew hater Nick.

We should put the British Airline Pilots' Association on notice
that
any flight WITHOUT armed sky marshals on board will be shot down as
a
precautionary measure.

And you honestly wonder why the rest of the world has such a low
opinion of America?

And you honestly think we give a **** about some ****-whiskered Brits
who are too ****ing stupid to safeguard their own planes?

You should, Decades of proper airline security has proved stunningly
effective at stopping planes being hijacked

Prior to 9/11 when was the last time a US airliner was hijacked in the
US? And what ultimately stopped the domestic hijacking?

Are you saying that only the US managed to implement proper "airline
security"?

No. I asked prior to 9/11 when was the last time a US airliner was
hijacked in the US? Would you like to take a guess?

"No"? Then your question really isn't relevent, since hijacking aren't
limited to US airliners alone.

Second why exactly should we exclude the most recent example to show that
security was inadequate?

If you know the answer to my first question it relates directly to my
second question, What ultimately stopped domestic hijacking?

Nothing. 9/11 stands forth as an example that domestic hijacking was NEVER
stopped.

Now tie both of these two questions together with the correct answers
which I'm sure Shaun will be providing us, and then see how it relates
to the question of putting SKY MARSHALS on airplanes.

Two buildings destroyed, 4 planes with crew and passengers dead, thousands
of lives lost, many more injured.

And a commitment to SHOOT DOWN THE NEXT PLANE THAT IS HIJACKED.

Yea, I can see how that pretty much answers the question of whether we need
sky marshals on planes. We do. Period.

We do not need Sky Marshals on domestic airliners. Prior to 9/11 the
mindset on hijacked planes was for the passengers to just sit, be
passive and cooperate, and eventually the plane will go to Cuba or
wherever and eventually they'll be released safely and flown home.
After 9/11 passengers realized they were going on a suicide ride and
that realization caused them to adjust both their behavior and their
tactics. You will no longer see a group of passengers sit back and
meekly accept their fate when they realize they are going to die no
matter what action they take. The new mindset is, if faced with this
situation you must either fight for control of the aircraft otherwise
you will be doomed to go down with the plane anyway. So you might as
well take the hijackers with you. Since 9/11 we've had at least 3
cases where an airliner was threatened by the behavior of an
individual on board. In all three cases these individuals were either
subdued immediately or killed by the passengers who are no longer
assuming the flight attendant is responsible for taking care of the
problem. In this type of environment the added factor of a Sky
Marshal might actually be a hinderance rather than a help as he could
be mistaken for a hijacker himself.

The plane which went down in PA was a perfect example of the mindset
passengers have once they know they are cannon fodder. Everyone
knows, no hijacker will ever again get into the cockpit from the
passenger cabin. Al Queda knows it too. That's why they are
attempting to bring airline employed licensed pilots onto the cockpit
prior to the flight ever taking off.

That is my opinion. I know yours as misguided as it is.