Frangible bullets

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

And here we make fun of journalists for assuming that all private
aircraft are Cubs.

They aren't?

SNOB!!! :~)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Completely backwards. You never shoot an animal unless you're farily sure
of
an _immediate_ kill (like mere seconds).

Perhaps I never do, but evidently I am in a small minority, given the
number of guys I've met tracking deer through my woods by the blood
trail.

Was that the result of their poor marksmanship and poor decisions to take a
high risk shot...or their intent to get some exercise by chasing down the
wounded animal?

I "assume" you're familiar with the term "Buck Fever".

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

You don;t shoot to "disable", you shoot to KILL

Everyone here seems to live in a perfect world, where they never miss
the heart. Good on you, lads! For my part, I hope the sky marshal has
a soft-nosed bullet in that gun of his, because it would be just my
luck to be on the plane that wasn't guarded by Dirty Harry.

Or Harry's predecessor, John Wayne.

Thank you for casting some light into the darkness! I'm not sure I
feel any safer now, but at least I'm better informed

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:28:35 GMT, Richard Riley
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:18 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

:
:The only dangerous
:thing that a bullet in an aircraft could do is hit something in the
:control system (guess how many backup systems there are?) or take out
:an engine (they can fly without one) or hit one of the people in the
:cockpit. (there are two of them, at least)
:
:Well, it could hit me--that's dangerous!

True, and that's something that everyone involved would like to avoid.
All the good guys, anyway. All that blood to clean up, all the
paperwork. Just a bad scene all around.
:
:Thanks for the information about frangibles / prefragmented / sky
:marshal rounds. But are the marshal's rounds different again from
refragmented?

FAM's have rounds that are loaded especially for the unique job
environment that they face, rounds that are not commercially
available. I can't comment any further than that.

The Glasers are amazing. I don't have any direct experience with the
MagSafes, but they're similar. The Glasers have a thin copper jacket,
designed to tear away. Inside they take #12 birdshot, dip it in
teflon, and swage it into the jacket. The teflon keeps the shot from
fusing. When it hits, each piece takes off on it's own path and makes
it's own wound channel. If it's not a lethal hit, there's so much
surface area in the wound channels that the target bleeds massively,
and goes into shock within a couple of seconds. Get hit in something
like the upper thigh, you'll bleed to death in 30 seconds or so. I
saw a sick horse put down with one shot to the chest from a .38 with a
Glaser, it was down in a count of 4.
:
:The way I'm reading this is this: Sky marshals do indeed have a type
f breakup round that is intended to lessen the chance that the guy
:behind the hijacker will be killed, and that has nothing to do with
:the possibility of piercing the aircraft shell?

I can say that avoiding piercing the aircraft shell is not priority.
Think about it this way. An airplane is flying at about 10 psi
internal pressure, with maybe 4 psi pressure outside (these are VERY
rough figures, flame away if you wish).

6 psi is not much more than you can blow with your lungs, if you push
HARD you'll get up to about 5 psi.

Now, how much could you blow, with your lungs, through a short piece
of 1/2 inch pipe? That's about the diameter hole that a pistol bullet
would make in the skin of an airliner, or through an airliner window.

It's not very much. Look at the windows on some older airliners. See
the little holes in the corners? That's to let a little air leak out.
Take all those holes together, they're much greater area than 1/2".
Depressurization from a bullet is a non issue, there's 100 times more
bleed air available for pressurization than you'd loose through a
bullet hole.

A much greater issue is what's under the floor (control stuff, cables,
electronics and hydraulics, and fuel tanks and lines) and what's
behind (or, in front of) the cockpit bulkhead. Prefrag rounds spray
on the back side of such things, and would greatly lessen the damage
that could be done to such critical items.

On a side note - hollow point or soft point expanding bullets are
banned in war by the Geneva Convention. Pre fragmented bullets
aren't. In a conventional war between states, you actually want to
wound the enemy - if you kill him, that's one enemy gone. If you
wound him, it's him, the medic, the ambulance, the hospital, doctor,
nurse, etc, that you've tied up.

Whoops, gotta go, time for Babys's 3 am feeding.

Don't worry about airliners, they're about the most hardened target we
have right now. Shipping containers, small planes, electrical grids,
railroads, chemical plants, rock concerts, football games, LNG ships -
those are the things to worry about.

RR

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

If you need to shoot, your intent needs to be a "kill". No one is a good
enough sharpshooter under stress to play games with "disabling".

Were you born stupid, or did you have to work at it?

Nobody is suggesting that the sky marshal shoot so as to disable.

Are you stupid by birth or do you work at it? We've had seeral here suggest
that one shout merely shoot to disable. During 40 years of shooting I've
heard several people suggest that one should only "shoot to wound". The
people that confuse movies with reality is appalling, especially when it
comes down to life and death siuation.


We
are suggesting that he be so armed that a non-fatal hit will indeed
disable.

And here is your stupidity--- the only 100% disabling shot is a FATAL shot,
either my a strike to the controlling part of the brain, and that may take
several attempts.


Am I wrong in thinking that you've never had to fire a gun while
someone was shooting at you?

No, YOU'RE NOT WRONG...and all YOU'VE probably heard is outright BULL****.
You evidence it every time you open you mouth in this thread, including
you're glaring ignorance the effect of various bullet types and your stupid
remarks about hunting.

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Thank you for casting some light into the darkness! I'm not sure I
feel any safer now, but at least I'm better informed

Too bad most of what he said was just wrong, or irrelevant.


On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:28:35 GMT, Richard Riley
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:18 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

:
:The only dangerous
:thing that a bullet in an aircraft could do is hit something in the
:control system (guess how many backup systems there are?) or take out
:an engine (they can fly without one) or hit one of the people in the
:cockpit. (there are two of them, at least)
:
:Well, it could hit me--that's dangerous!

True, and that's something that everyone involved would like to avoid.
All the good guys, anyway. All that blood to clean up, all the
paperwork. Just a bad scene all around.
:
:Thanks for the information about frangibles / prefragmented / sky
:marshal rounds. But are the marshal's rounds different again from
refragmented?

FAM's have rounds that are loaded especially for the unique job
environment that they face, rounds that are not commercially
available. I can't comment any further than that.

The Glasers are amazing. I don't have any direct experience with the
MagSafes, but they're similar. The Glasers have a thin copper jacket,
designed to tear away. Inside they take #12 birdshot, dip it in
teflon, and swage it into the jacket. The teflon keeps the shot from
fusing. When it hits, each piece takes off on it's own path and makes
it's own wound channel. If it's not a lethal hit, there's so much
surface area in the wound channels that the target bleeds massively,
and goes into shock within a couple of seconds. Get hit in something
like the upper thigh, you'll bleed to death in 30 seconds or so. I
saw a sick horse put down with one shot to the chest from a .38 with a
Glaser, it was down in a count of 4.
:
:The way I'm reading this is this: Sky marshals do indeed have a type
f breakup round that is intended to lessen the chance that the guy
:behind the hijacker will be killed, and that has nothing to do with
:the possibility of piercing the aircraft shell?

I can say that avoiding piercing the aircraft shell is not priority.
Think about it this way. An airplane is flying at about 10 psi
internal pressure, with maybe 4 psi pressure outside (these are VERY
rough figures, flame away if you wish).

6 psi is not much more than you can blow with your lungs, if you push
HARD you'll get up to about 5 psi.

Now, how much could you blow, with your lungs, through a short piece
of 1/2 inch pipe? That's about the diameter hole that a pistol bullet
would make in the skin of an airliner, or through an airliner window.

It's not very much. Look at the windows on some older airliners. See
the little holes in the corners? That's to let a little air leak out.
Take all those holes together, they're much greater area than 1/2".
Depressurization from a bullet is a non issue, there's 100 times more
bleed air available for pressurization than you'd loose through a
bullet hole.

A much greater issue is what's under the floor (control stuff, cables,
electronics and hydraulics, and fuel tanks and lines) and what's
behind (or, in front of) the cockpit bulkhead. Prefrag rounds spray
on the back side of such things, and would greatly lessen the damage
that could be done to such critical items.

On a side note - hollow point or soft point expanding bullets are
banned in war by the Geneva Convention. Pre fragmented bullets
aren't. In a conventional war between states, you actually want to
wound the enemy - if you kill him, that's one enemy gone. If you
wound him, it's him, the medic, the ambulance, the hospital, doctor,
nurse, etc, that you've tied up.

Whoops, gotta go, time for Babys's 3 am feeding.

Don't worry about airliners, they're about the most hardened target we
have right now. Shipping containers, small planes, electrical grids,
railroads, chemical plants, rock concerts, football games, LNG ships -
those are the things to worry about.

RR

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

And keep your piece loaded with Hydra-Shoks T... Frangible crap is just
that - crap; window dressing to calm the hysterical...
Denny
"Nomen Nescio" Use-Author-Supplied-Address- "Well, officer, I kept
shooting until I was sure I stopped him" will be viewed a LOT
different than "Well, officer, I kept shooting until I was sure I killed
him".

I carry 2 reloads, actually (22 rds total). I can accurately (@7 yrds)
empty A mag
in about 3-4 seconds. Even with a first shot kill, the other 7 rounds
will be flying
before someone "stops". 4 sec. to reload, so roughly 10 sec. to "stop"
and prepare
for the unseen partner.

Have you ever really had to use a gun for a living? I say this only because
you just fired off all of your ammo at someone who you yourself said may be
dead. My question to you now is what are your going to do about the second
person behind you?

Two words for you my friend...Double Tap.



"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in message
...
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From: "Casey Wilson"

In that regard, a .45cal +P hollow-point will to the job adequately.
That's what I carry.
And, by the way, I have always been taught to use the gun only to
STOP
the attacker. If s/he expires as a result.... well, that is collateral
damage.

Yea, that should "stop" someone. I carry the .40 S&W 'cause I've never
found
a comfortable and concealable .45.

Empty the magazine only if you must to make the stop. And you better
have a reload available for when his partner come charging out of the
shadows.

I carry 2 reloads, actually (22 rds total). I can accurately (@7 yrds)
empty A mag
in about 3-4 seconds. Even with a first shot kill, the other 7 rounds will
be flying
before someone "stops". 4 sec. to reload, so roughly 10 sec. to "stop" and
prepare
for the unseen partner.

Answer: Altitude and Ammo!

Question: What are two things an armed pilot can never have too much of?

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"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message ...

The only REAL one shot kill/stop is a shot to the (I'm going to botch the
spelling here I'm sure) Obdula Oblongota (the part of the brain you take out
when you shoot yourself in the mouth to commit suicide).

Medulla Oblongata. And it's amazing how many people miss this (or anything
else lethal) when putting a gun in their mouth.

Quite. "Securing the situation" means taking out all the bad guys, even
those hang back.

Depends what service you're in :-)

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message ...


Are you stupid by birth or do you work at it? We've had seeral here suggest
that one shout merely shoot to disable. During 40 years of shooting I've
heard several people suggest that one should only "shoot to wound". The
people that confuse movies with reality is appalling, especially when it
comes down to life and death siuation.

Phasers on stun, Mr. Spock.