Tight patterns?

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?


I own an Aeronca 7AC and fly a tight pattern, and think I'm quite normal.

I was wondering the same thing. I own a Citabria and fly a tight
pattern. When I trained in PA28-161's we flew tight patterns. I was
taught to fly a pattern that will allow me to land if I lose the engine
while in the pattern. The students at my home field train in new 172's.
They fly, to my eye, very wide patterns. Maybe it's a newer training
method?
Dave

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

Bob,

I can sympathize. I fly (still student) at McCollum (RYY) and do notice the
same thing. My CFI called them "747 patterns". The tower likes to keep
closed traffic between the field and Kennesaw Mountain no matter which
runway is in use so you can't stray too far that way! But yes, I've
wondered "Is he going to Roswell (or Birmingham) before he turns base?"
Then again, they may be a student learning is how I look at it. But, my CFI
used to say things like, "Now would be a good time to turn." But they're
not all students. I've been in the pattern with CAPflight doing touch and
goes and they'll fly those 747 patterns too!

Chris

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

In article ,
(Bob Martin) writes:


IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).


Like everything else, this can be taken to dangerous extremes in either
direction.

Too wide a pattern wastes time and puts you out of gliding range from the
runway.

But the only close call I ever had to a collision was the result of a guy in a
NORDO Husky flying too tight, and especially, TOO LOW, a pattern.

At CPK, pattern altitude is 1000 msl. I was practicing crosswind landings in a
Katana ( really like those little airplanes) and staying close in at pattern
altitude. The Husky took off after me and I saw him lifting off about midfield
as I turned from crosswind to downwind, but then lost track of him. On final, I
still couldn't see him and hadn't heard him either, so I got nervous. So I
added power and did some S-turns to move my wing around an look down, and sure
enough, there he was, a hundred feet or so below and slightly ahead of me. I
went around and later had a talk with him at the fuel pumps.

I don't think he ever got to 800 feet, and probably turned crosswing before he
was even to the end of the runway, and flew such a tight pattern that he
overtook and passed me. Add a low wing over a high wing, a NORDO aircraft
flying a non-standard pattern, and you've got a midair waiting to happen.

The point being that we fly a standard pattern for a reason, and that is so
other pilots can anticipate where we're going to be and know where to look to
see and avoid and so that the timing works out right. It would make some sense
for the slower Husky to fly a tighter pattern than a Cessna, and a Bonanza a
wider one, just to accomadate the speed differences in maintaining separation,
but not reaching pattern altitude is asking for disaster.

And, of course, if you're NORDO, it is even more important to fly in a
predictable manner.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

His not being where you expect him to be... has nothing to do with your
(and his) mutual obligation to see and avoid each other. There is no
requirement to even USE a pattern. You cant depend on other traffic
having a radio at the uncontrolled fields I use.

Dave

Wdtabor wrote:
In article ,
(Bob Martin) writes:


IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).



Like everything else, this can be taken to dangerous extremes in either
direction.

Too wide a pattern wastes time and puts you out of gliding range from the
runway.

But the only close call I ever had to a collision was the result of a guy in a
NORDO Husky flying too tight, and especially, TOO LOW, a pattern.

At CPK, pattern altitude is 1000 msl. I was practicing crosswind landings in a
Katana ( really like those little airplanes) and staying close in at pattern
altitude. The Husky took off after me and I saw him lifting off about midfield
as I turned from crosswind to downwind, but then lost track of him. On final, I
still couldn't see him and hadn't heard him either, so I got nervous. So I
added power and did some S-turns to move my wing around an look down, and sure
enough, there he was, a hundred feet or so below and slightly ahead of me. I
went around and later had a talk with him at the fuel pumps.

I don't think he ever got to 800 feet, and probably turned crosswing before he
was even to the end of the runway, and flew such a tight pattern that he
overtook and passed me. Add a low wing over a high wing, a NORDO aircraft
flying a non-standard pattern, and you've got a midair waiting to happen.

The point being that we fly a standard pattern for a reason, and that is so
other pilots can anticipate where we're going to be and know where to look to
see and avoid and so that the timing works out right. It would make some sense
for the slower Husky to fly a tighter pattern than a Cessna, and a Bonanza a
wider one, just to accomadate the speed differences in maintaining separation,
but not reaching pattern altitude is asking for disaster.

And, of course, if you're NORDO, it is even more important to fly in a
predictable manner.

Don

In article ,
(Bob Martin) wrote:

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

AMEN! Here around Daytona Beach, we call them "Riddle Patterns." I fly
a high-performance antique and do a lot of overheads (usually as part of
a formation). I try to keep it in tight enough to make the runway even
dirty, power off. The result is keeping to less than 1/2 mile from the
runway.

"dave" wrote in message
...

I was wondering the same thing. I own a Citabria and fly a tight
pattern. When I trained in PA28-161's we flew tight patterns. I was
taught to fly a pattern that will allow me to land if I lose the engine
while in the pattern. The students at my home field train in new 172's.
They fly, to my eye, very wide patterns. Maybe it's a newer training
method?


I took my primary training nearly thirty years ago at GRB in a Cessna 150.
Lambeau Field is about 2 1/2 miles from the runway 24 threshold, I don't
recall ever getting near it while in the pattern unless directed to follow
another aircraft. Today it's common for students in similar aircraft to
make their base to final turn over the stadium even when they're alone in
the pattern.

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

Huge patterns must be part of the training syllabus locally. I fly out of
Cartersville, which is about 50 NM north of Falcon. Being about 15 miles
north of McCollum (a busy controlled field), we get all of McCollum's
overflow traffic from the various flight schools and other flyers who are
based at McCollum, but don't want to deal with the traffic there when
shooting touch and go's...

I can't count the number of times I've followed a 172 from Northside
Aviation that is flying a B-52 sized pattern with only him and me in the
pattern... AARGH!

Even better, the instructors from Northside like to use our local Unicom
frequency for air to air chat's... There is nothing more exciting than
trying to figure out where 8 aircraft (2 172's, 3 ultralights, a couple of
RV's, and a Lear Jet ) are in the patten when you're barraged with some 22
year old CFI's social plans for Saturday night.

KB

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
| Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?
|
| The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
| training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
| landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
| some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
| downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc.

All of us at PAVCO constantly rail against students that fly bomber
patterns. None of MY students would ever do such a thing. It must be all
those other instructors' students. :-)

Our pattern at TIW is wider than I would like because of a local noise
abatement procedure -- the tower wants to keep downwind traffic out over
Wollochet Bay, which means you are more than a mile from the field. If it is
a north pattern, they don't want you to turn to crosswind until you are at
1000 feet or over the golf course, which is almost two miles out. Even so,
this pattern does not seem to be nearly big enough for a lot of people.