Tight patterns?

Dave,
This is an interesting topic. I don't fly out of your home airport
but I have landed there many times. I live close so I spend a lot of
my liesure time watching the traffic there. You are correct that they
typically fly a fairly large pattern but it is not only the students.
I can sit there and predict where the base to final turn will be and
it is very consistent through the entire cross-section of pilots.

I don't know if it's a new method training but I do think it is an
unintended byproduct of the training. Students tend to think of each
leg of the pattern as an event in and of itself. As such, they have
the understandable need to stabilize each leg and go through the
mental work of setting up the next leg. Many pilots retain this
method of landing because it is what they learned and they are
comfortable with it. And there is nothing wrong with that. That
being said, there is a lot to be said for a tighter pattern. It
sounds like something that the CFIs might want to present at their
BFRs. You know, something like "Your landing pattern is fine, but now
that you have xxx hours you may want to consider tightening the
pattern up a little", followed by a demonstration.

By the way, I have observed (strictly anecdotally) that taildraggers
tend to fly a tighter pattern than us trike guys.
Rich Russell

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:26:33 -0500, dave
wrote:

I was wondering the same thing. I own a Citabria and fly a tight
pattern. When I trained in PA28-161's we flew tight patterns. I was
taught to fly a pattern that will allow me to land if I lose the engine
while in the pattern. The students at my home field train in new 172's.
They fly, to my eye, very wide patterns. Maybe it's a newer training
method?
Dave

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

"Wdtabor" wrote:
The point being that we fly a standard pattern for a reason,

What's a "standard pattern?"
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

I don't think he ever got to 800 feet, and probably turned crosswing before he
was even to the end of the runway, and flew such a tight pattern that he
overtook and passed me. Add a low wing over a high wing, a NORDO aircraft
flying a non-standard pattern, and you've got a midair waiting to happen.

Don, you have to understand that what may be a "normal" or "standard"
pattern for metal spam cans is too high for a light, rag and tube
taildragger. The lighter weight and lower descent speeds would reek
havoc with your spam can descents and airspeeds in your "normal"
pattern.

In my 7AC, I can fly inside you and below and either land and be clear
before you turn final or, I can do a 360 between downwind and final and
land behind you if you are on final. There is no comparison between the
performance of aircraft.

My approach speed is 55 MILES per hour. How far behind me are you going
to have to fly and how big a pattern are you going to fly to stay
behind me?

At my landing speed, 45 MILES per hour, I may only roll 100-200 feet.
If I land at the approach threshold, that means I have to taxi on the
runway to get to the taxiway, which may be 1000 or 1500 feet down the
runway. My taxi speed is 25 - 30 MILES per hour.

If I fly your "normal" pattern, you are in a world of hurt. Plus, if
your engine burps, you are going to make an off airport landing. By
flying inside and below you, the taildragger pilot allows you to be
where you want to be.

Additionally, because I can land slower and shorter, I may turn my
downwind to final before I reach the approach end of the runway to
alleviate the long taxi. I will pick my landing spot down the runway at
a point where I can touch down, roll out and make the turn off.

In article et, Dave S
writes:


His not being where you expect him to be... has nothing to do with your
(and his) mutual obligation to see and avoid each other. There is no
requirement to even USE a pattern. You cant depend on other traffic
having a radio at the uncontrolled fields I use.


However is inside pattern and failure to reach the published pattern altitude
created a positioning that made it impossible for either of us to see or avoid
the other.

Had I not been nervous about NOT being able to see him and not knowing, since
he was NORDO, if he had remained in the pattern or flown straight out, he would
have had landing gear poking down through his wings in just a few more seconds.

It may be true that folks aren't required to fly a standard pattern, at the
published altitude, but I am saying it is good practice to do so, and
unnecssarily risky to not.

And that flying predictably when NORDO is even more important.

Not law, just good sense.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

In article , EDR
writes:


Don, you have to understand that what may be a "normal" or "standard"
pattern for metal spam cans is too high for a light, rag and tube
taildragger. The lighter weight and lower descent speeds would reek
havoc with your spam can descents and airspeeds in your "normal"
pattern.

In my 7AC, I can fly inside you and below and either land and be clear
before you turn final or, I can do a 360 between downwind and final and
land behind you if you are on final. There is no comparison between the
performance of aircraft.


You can, if you see me. But I am going to be high and behind you from the
moment you turn crosswind. Do you have one of those clear wings?

In the scenario I described, the Husky came from under and behind me as he
passed and cut me off in the pattern, he was obscurred by the wing and fuselage
of the Katana from the moment I lost sight of him on downwind.

If you fly that kind of pattern, I have no way to know you are even there until
I hear the thump.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Bob,

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

You've discovered one of the real shortcomings of ab initio flight
training where they teach students how to become commuter airline
pilots rather than how to fly. Thus the giant sized patterns. It's a
true pain in the whatsis.

At controlled fields when I'm stuck behind some yahoo flying downwind
a mile from the field, I'll ask for a right pattern the next time
around, fly it tight and get in front of the slow motion stuff. Tower
usually understands and will cooperate. Sometimes a visit to the
tower to discuss it results in an understanding and they'll help you
out.

At uncontrolled fields, if it is just one airplane that is the problem
when I'm shooting landings, I'll simply fly a close in downwind and
ask the pilot of the offending airplane if he minds me flying a tight
pattern inside him one time. I've never had anyone refuse. A polite
inquiry has always worked for me.

All the best,
Rick

Well, you shouldn't fly a tight pattern any more than you should fly a
wide pattern. Maintaining correct pattern altitude is a good ideal, too.
This stuff is all spelled out in the AIM.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer

Bob Martin wrote:

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

In article ,
Richard Russell wrote:

Dave,
This is an interesting topic. I don't fly out of your home airport
but I have landed there many times. I live close so I spend a lot of
my liesure time watching the traffic there. You are correct that they
typically fly a fairly large pattern but it is not only the students.
I can sit there and predict where the base to final turn will be and
it is very consistent through the entire cross-section of pilots.

I don't know if it's a new method training but I do think it is an
unintended byproduct of the training. Students tend to think of each
leg of the pattern as an event in and of itself. As such, they have
the understandable need to stabilize each leg and go through the
mental work of setting up the next leg. Many pilots retain this
method of landing because it is what they learned and they are
comfortable with it. And there is nothing wrong with that. That
being said, there is a lot to be said for a tighter pattern. It
sounds like something that the CFIs might want to present at their
BFRs. You know, something like "Your landing pattern is fine, but now
that you have xxx hours you may want to consider tightening the
pattern up a little", followed by a demonstration.

By the way, I have observed (strictly anecdotally) that taildraggers
tend to fly a tighter pattern than us trike guys.
Rich Russell


The instructor who soloed me in the C150 wanted me a mile out on final
at 300 feet agl. Directly over an unlandable area of tall pines. I did
as she asked when she was in the plane. When she got out of the plane to
solo me, I flew the pattern the way I wanted to. I would keep the
runway, or other landable area under my wing, usually pretty close to
the end of the wing strut. Never out of gliding range of a safe landing
site.With the 40 degree flaps and power off, the descent from a high,
short final was pretty much like parachuting. Maybe I was being
paranoid about an engine failure but the C150 I was flying had a very
noticeable repair on the wing where it had once hit a car while landing
on the road following an engine failure. The CFI's I've flown with since
are older tailwheel types who teach high tight patterns.

I had the good fortune to get checked out in a J3 Cub recently. After
flying it for two days, with and without the instructor, I realized that
I could not remember looking at the altimeter once. Everything was about
reference to the ground and horizon and using landmarks on the aircaft,
such as the jury struts, etc. judge correct heights and distances. This
is as it should be for VFR in light (slow) single engine airplanes.

If the engine is not on fire, I'm pretty happy. If it's actually making
power, I count that as a bonus.

(Rick Durden) wrote in message om...
Bob,

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

You've discovered one of the real shortcomings of ab initio flight
training where they teach students how to become commuter airline
pilots rather than how to fly. Thus the giant sized patterns. It's a
true pain in the whatsis.

Exactly what the training is at Falcon... granted, I went through the
same course, but not with the intent of a commercial rating (at the
time, anyways). However, my instructor was the son of a South African
bush pilot... so I got a more "fly the airplane" approach than the
school's "follow the school-standard procedures." Thus, my next CFI
was shocked the first couple times he flew with me... but I made him
get over it And since I've started flying an RV-6 (as opposed to a
C-150) with my dad (former E-2 pilot), my pattern has gotten even
tighter...

At uncontrolled fields, if it is just one airplane that is the problem
when I'm shooting landings, I'll simply fly a close in downwind and
ask the pilot of the offending airplane if he minds me flying a tight
pattern inside him one time. I've never had anyone refuse. A polite
inquiry has always worked for me.

Yeah, I've asked if I can cut ahead of people before... it's real easy
to do, since passing the end of the runway I'm usually at 300ft AGL,
and climbing at least 1000fpm. When flying my normal pattern, I turn
crosswind then or shortly after... and flying a continuous turn to
downwind, I'll end up at 1000ft about the time I roll out.

(Bob Martin) wrote in message . com...
Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).


At a lot of airports you are in the pattern mixed up with Jets so it
works out best if you fly a similar pattern. A Cessna's pretty damn
slow though.