AIRNAV not publishing fuel prices...

I started AirNav in 1995 and am still involved in it, although I don't
run the whole show anymore.

One thing that several of you have figured out is that AirNav needs to
have a sufficient revenue stream to be viable.

Two alternatives: charge the users (pilots) or charge the
advertisers (FBOs).

So what are we doing to the businesses that don't pay? We typically
take out all their information, except their name, phone number, fuel
prices, and user comments.

So far, so good. But there's more to it. The value of the service you provide
is proportional to the information you provide. Now, there are two kinds of
information (and you can see the difference all the time on the web)... there
is the information the seeker wants (i.e. fuel prices and comments) and
information the business wants the seeker to have ("2 for 1 special on pork
chops - today only so hurry!!") Strip out too much of what the seeker wants
and there will be no more seekers, and thus no market for pork chops.

Like the phone book, the value of AirNav is its comprehensiveness. I go to
AirNav and know I don't have to go anywhere else. This is also what would make
it attractive to FBOs. So it makes a lot of sense to provide free basic
information (including contact information) and then, for an added charge to
the FBO, other information that the FBO might want us to have.

you should make it clear to them that
you use AirNav, and that AirNav plays a role in your FBO selection
process. They'll get the message.

AIrNav specials could go a long way towards making this happen. A pilot uses
AirNav, he gets a "coupon number" which is good for (say) a 5c discount on
fuel, a free night at the Alexis inn (or 10% off any other listed lodging), a
waived landing fee... something. IT would encourage pilots who use AirNav to
make their use of AirNav known to the businesses listed there, and provides an
incentive to use those businesses (as they are the ones providing the goodies).
Word will get around.

As for charging the pilots, how about if we charged AirNav for the fuel
information we are providing? After all, it is valuable information too, and
AirNav is using it for commercial purposes. Our input is what allows AirNav to
be the comprehensive and timely information source it is, so why shouldn't we
get compensated? Flying is expensive, and pilots also need revenue streams.
Seems an ideal match to me.

Or we could just ride along free using AirNav, while AirNav rides along free on
our sleuthing, the way life should be.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

On 30-Jan-2004, (Paulo Santos) wrote:

So what are we doing to the businesses that don't pay? We typically
take out all their information, except their name, phone number, fuel
prices, and user comments.


Paulo,

First of all, I want to thank you for providing such a useful service to the
GA community. I've used it frequently with good results.

I believe that your fee structure, as you describe it, is very fair and
reasonable. But for users, I fail to see what the big deal is. If you
continue to list non-paying FBOs, along with their telephone numbers, fuel
prices, and user comments, you are still providing the majority of what
users want to see. The rest -- advertising and/or links to websites -- are
really more to the benefit of the business involved.

Keep up the good work!

--
-Elliott Drucker

Paulo,

First of all I would like to thank you once more on creating such a
great website. Second I would like to apologize if starting this
thread made you upset in any way. The reason I started this thread is
to raise your attention to something that could ultimately affect
AIRNAV.

As you can see from all the posts made by GA people, everybody
understand that AIRNAV needs funding. We do not need any other mirror
web site as long as AIRNAV continue providing a mechanism that all
pilots can help each other in selecting the FBO on an unknown airport.

The way AIRNAV created to fund the web site is kind of awkward. The
FBOs that have a high price and has money to invest in advertising
should not be to inclined on maintaining a web site that is been used
by pilots to find a cheaper source of fuel in the region. But I hope
this is giving good returns to AIRNAV.

The problem comes that FBOs that have the best prices are not to
willing to invest in advertising probably because their margins are
low or they belong to the City. This is easily proved on AIRNAV web
site doing a Long Format Great Deal Report. You will notice that more
than 50% of the FBOs in that report are not sponsoring AIRNAV. And
these are the FBOs that should have the greatest interest in
advertising their prices.

I do remember sometime ago when AIRNAV web site was down. You stated
that many pilots have contacted you asking to give financial support.
I am sure that if you included an easy way for pilots/owners that take
great advantage from the site to make donations, you could be
surprised. The same comes to Hotel and Car reservations, let the
pilots know that by doing these reservations through AIRNAV they are
helping support the website.

I do understand that you are charging from the FBOs prices from $20 to
$750 per year is really very cheap considering the revenue generated
by the FBOs. But some people are just lazy to send a check every year
or have to much paper work involved to make such payment.

What I ask of you is to publish just fuel prices for the FBOs that are
not able to make such payments. This is not happening; I know at least
two airports with new fuel service that the prices are not been
published. And also like to suggest include the prices charged for
tie-down and hanger, sometimes these charges surprise us pilots.

Personally I always mention AIRNAV to the FBOs I visit and will
continue to do so.

Rgds,

Victor

"John Galban" wrote in message
om...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:IQeSb.51817$U%5.286038@attbi_s03...

I feel for Paulo. He's operated this website full-time for a couple of
years, basically "on the house." Now that he's trying to actually make
a
buck, everyone is down his throat. I say if an FBO is too damned cheap
to
pay for their listing, that alone says enough to me that I will avoid
the
place.


Don't get me wrong. I think that Paulo has done an incredible job
with Airnav. I tell anyone who will listen that it is the best
aviation site on the web. I also think he should make a buck on this
venture (lots of them, actually). I just think that his current
strategy will degrade the quality of the site.

There are lots of good mom & pop FBOs that are run on a shoestring
and don't do any advertising. That doesn't make them bad. You might
be content to avoid anyone who does not pay for an Airnav listing, but
if half of the FBOs disappear from the site, will it be as useful as
it once was? I don't think so.

Recall that all FBO's are listed, even those that pay nothing. They don't an
elaborate link, but their base info and fuel prices are listed.

Ultimately, it's Paulo's call.
Personally, I'd be glad to pay an annual subscription fee to access
Airnav. It's a valuable resource to me.

I find no real fault at all with his plan.

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
"Gig Giacona" writes:

- Do you use AirNav?
- YES, all the time. I love it.
- What do you fly, how much?
- I fly a Baron, 250 hours a year.
- What does AirNav do for you?
- I use it everytime I go somewhere. I have saved thousands of
dollars by using AirNav. On this last trip alone I save $150 by
filling up for $1.85 at XYZ.
- Great. Would you pay $39/year to continue to use the service?
[ blank stare, followed by color disappearing from pilot's face ]
[ after regaining composure... ]
- Are you out of your mind??? Absolutely not. I would stop using it.


Who would have thought Baron drivers were that stupid?

I understand that it's fun to call others "irrational" and "stupid"
upon failure to understand their logic, but this decision sometimes
has nothing to do with cost so if you're stuck thinking in those
terms you're unlikely to understand what's happening.

I, for example, used AirNav from my phone last night. Is the data
worth $100/year to me? Sure. Is it worth $100/year if I have to
use JavaScript and cookies and whatever other garbage to get to it
(thus rendering it unusable on my phone and most of my other
browers) and can no longer post usable links to it? No way.

S, it's not a matter of cost, it's the one in a thousand users like yourself
that have an issue under extreme circumstances?

Talk about validating the point about "irrational" and "stupid".

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
Is Paulo liable for maintaining a forum where other people can post
unedited
comments?

Mike
MU-2

They are not unedited; they have to go through an approval process.
Likewise, a lot of positive comments are put in by employees and the FBO
owners.

Like anything, you have to take it with a grain of salt...sometimes

--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine lots of salt.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:j4ySb.191013$na.317880@attbi_s04...

He said it didn't matter -- so I put him in our smallest suite for a
whopping $47.95. Then, of course, after check-in he started bitching that
there was no "airplane stuff" in his suite.

Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Now everyone here will feel like a sucker if they pay one penney more! :-)

Mike
MU-2

Kyler Laird writes:

[...] So...what would it take to convince [paulo] to just sell
AirNav (or at least the database)?

The situation reminds me of a few other collective databases on the
Internet over the years. If my recollection is correct, CDDB, IMDB,
and a bunch of others, fell into the pattern where a vast number of
individuals built up a shared database over time. The database was of
course not considered a single individual's property - the web site
hosting was just a volunteer contribution in kind. But once
popularity hit a critical point, and money became too alluring a
possibility, the former volunteer data host suddenly claimed legal
ownership of the collected data. The raw data became an inaccessible
hostage; parts became pay services; in some cases the data was sold
off to some newly commercial enterprise.

In reaction, several projects have started again, rebuilding these
newly proprietary databases from scratch, but this time with formal
policy safeguards to keep the data as free as the original
contributors intended anyway. Many encourage anyone to download the
entire underlying database. One wonders how airnav's proprietors
would react to such a competitor.

- FChE

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
There is no assurance that by paying $39/year the service would remain the
same. Look at what happend to "commercial free cable TV" once enough
people
started paying. Commercials came back.

I don't even remember "commercial free cable TV". When cable first showed
up, mostly it just had public access, and local channels. Home shopping
turned up not long after that (which is basically JUST advertising). A few
channels were commercial free for a brief period (Bravo, for example), but
most cable-only channels that showed up started out with commercials right
off the bat, as I remember it.

You don't always get what you pay for, but you sure pay for what you get.

Ain't that the truth. IMHO, consumers get what they deserve. They exhibit
a willingness to pay good money for crap, so that's what they get for their
good money. This isn't limited to TV by any stretch of the imagination. It
happens in nearly all markets, unfortunately.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:j4ySb.191013$na.317880@attbi_s04...

He said it didn't matter -- so I put him in our smallest suite for a
whopping $47.95. Then, of course, after check-in he started bitching that
there was no "airplane stuff" in his suite.



I've just the thing for your budget customers.

How about a selection of fine O470 engine mounts,
out-of-spec rockers & worn-out valves? You can
put them in the corner next to a vintage bucket of
used Aeroshell 100+ with matching hacked-up oil
filter, or sprinkle them around the floor. Your choice.

There. Fine old 'airplane stuff'. Feel free to pick them
up next time you're in Las Vegas.

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/