Position and Hold at uncontrolled field

On 2004-02-24, dave wrote:
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold".

This technique is used to encourage go-around practice for those die
hard "airmen" who can afford goggles and scarves (not to mention an
airplane) but not a hand held radio.

Jumpers are a major problem... The jump plane is talking to ATC until close
to unloading, then switches to Unicom and makes a quick, " . . . jumpers in
two minutes", BLIND CALL, that is almost always stepped on... The next call
is ". . . . jumpers away", also done in a hurry and in the blind...
Then, when I realize that 'maybe' I heard the word jumpers in amongst all
the squeals, I call for the jump plane to repeat, but he has turned down the
volume so he can bull**** with the jumpers, or he has gone back to ATC...
So, now 'maybe' I have uncontrolled bombs coming down from above, where I
can't see well, and if I roll into a tight 360 away from the pattern what
about the nordo out there in the haze not expecting me to do that... After
40 years of operating my airplanes out of a field with jumpers, I gotta tell
ya it got really old a long time ago...
denny



"BTIZ" wrote in message
radios.. and there is an active jump zone 4 miles south.. but if they'd
shut
up they could hear if the jump zone was active or not..

::: stepping down off radio discipline soapbox :::
BT

I don't do P&H at uncontrolled fields for the simple reason I can't see what
is happening on final... I stay at the line (or where one should be) until
the runway is clear for departure, and then I simply power around the turn
and smoothly go full throttle without stopping... There is zero lost time
compared to being in position and blind to the rear...

denny

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
It is not a new technique; people have been doing it for years. Most
instructors discourage it for the reasons you mention, but there is
nothing
illegal about it. There was an enormously long thread about it last year.
Maybe the guy normally flies out of a towered airport and just doesn't
know
any better.

Surprising things can happen even at towered airports. Uncontrolled fields
sometimes look like you are flying into a hive of bees. Aircraft flying
instrument approaches can come in from any direction and circle to land at
below pattern altitude. Helicopters may be flying in the opposite pattern.
Almost anybody can be using almost any pattern entry. Airplanes can be
using
opposite runways simultaneously. Ultralights fly their own pattern. And
radios -- hah! If the guy is making position calls at all (if he even
*has*
radios) he is likely as not broadcasting on the frequency of the airfield
he
departed from and annoying the heck out of the tower there. All of it is
legal, or just common human error, a lot of it is required, and just about
anything can happen.

Pilots can holler all they want about that *$()% who just did something
they
didn't like, but that's too bad. Nine times out of ten you find that it is
the guy who thinks he was wronged that needs to apologize to somebody.

Keep a sharp eye out and don't assume that everybody follows the same
rules
that you do.

"Doug Carter" wrote in message
...
On 2004-02-24, dave wrote:
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold".

This technique is used to encourage go-around practice for those die
hard "airmen" who can afford goggles and scarves (not to mention an
airplane) but not a hand held radio.

The people I have seen do position and holds at non towered airports are
also the kind that have radios but use them only for transmitting.

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message . com...
"dave" wrote in message
...
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.

Is this a new training technique to get students ready for controlled
fields? Most everybody has a radio at my home field but I fly into
fields where many pilots don't have or don't use their radio.

Dave
68 7ECA

I have never understood why some pilots use this technique to attempt
suicide. If they want to kill themselves why waste a perfectly good
airplane.


Position and hold at an uncontrolled runway may be stupid, but it is
not necessarily suicide. It takes an equally stupid aircraft to
collide with it.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
LOL...a couple of months ago nellis approach almost let me fly into a
mountain
because some guy from utah here for xmas shopping, flying out, I was right
behind
him, was doing that on the radio, ummm hhmmm mmmmummm and so on, I almost
told him
to spit it out and shut up but he wouldnt stop talking!
finally as I am nearing the mountain getting ready to make the decision to
deviate
from my course ATC had me on, he shut up and let me ask to make my turn.

I hate it when people just dont spit out what they have to say .


Remember that there are a lot of student pilots and low time pilots who have
a hard time learning to use the radios. Not everybody can be as crisp and
laconic as a 10,000 hour airline captain. Jumping on some guy who is having
trouble anyway is not helpful and simply ties up the radios even more while
you all argue over it.

One of the hardest things I have to do as an instructor is not jump in and
'help' my student on the radios or make his radio calls for him.

Instead of criticizing how others use the radios, concentrate on improving
your own radio habits and decision making.

"dave" wrote in message
...
I was returning to LOM today and after one plane had landed but not yet
cleared the runway, a pilot at the approach end announced "position and
hold". He taxied into position and waited for the previous aircraft to
clear the runway. He then made a normal departure. I was taught at
uncontrolled fields to never take the runway unless you can depart
promptly. Why? In case an aircraft is landing that you aren't aware
of. You may not be aware of the aircraft because he doesn't have a
radio, he called and you didn't hear him, you can't see him, etc.


Are you saying that some other aircraft is going to land before the first
has cleared the runway?

Pilots can holler all they want about that *$()% who just did something
they
didn't like, but that's too bad. Nine times out of ten you find that it
is
the guy who thinks he was wronged that needs to apologize to somebody.

Great summary of this, and almost every other "traffic at uncontrolled
airports" thread.

Maybe, but...

In my experience, it takes a pretty major -- and obviously wrong -- faux pas
to **** off a pilot to the point where he is "hollering" at someone.
Usually everyone is in "live and let live" mode, and no one gets too ruffled
when someone flies a weird pattern. (For example.)

When I've seen a blow up happen -- and I've only seen it happen twice in ten
years -- the guy getting hollered at clearly deserved it.

Or did you mean "holler" figuratively, CJ?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

it can be a big deal, the first and only time I flew into apple valley,
those
country boys out there were landing 2 and 3 planes at a time. It was a
mess.
half of them wasnt even talking, I think they figured that since the other
guy wasnt off the runway yet they did not need to make call since no one
could take off.

Are you talking about Apple Valley in Illinois, near Galena?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article ,
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:

Jumpers are a major problem... The jump plane is talking to ATC until close
to unloading, then switches to Unicom and makes a quick, " . . . jumpers in
two minutes", BLIND CALL, that is almost always stepped on... The next call
is ". . . . jumpers away", also done in a hurry and in the blind...

Do you want the jump pilot to personally call you? A blind call is all
he can do. I admit tho, some guys took speaking lessons from JFK and
really do need to slow down and be understood.

Then, when I realize that 'maybe' I heard the word jumpers in amongst all
the squeals, I call for the jump plane to repeat, but he has turned down the
volume so he can bull**** with the jumpers, or he has gone back to ATC...

You're at pattern altitude and hearing radio calls from people fairly
close in. The jump pilot is at 10-12K hearing radio calls from 1/2 way
around the world. G You wanna talk squeal? The pilot simply may not
be able to hear your call due to other radio traffic stepping on you.
(Jumpers don't have radios so the pilot probably isn't BSing with them.
G)

So, now 'maybe' I have uncontrolled bombs coming down from above, where I
can't see well, and if I roll into a tight 360 away from the pattern what
about the nordo out there in the haze not expecting me to do that...

The jumpers will be open usually no lower than 1800 AGL unless they have
a problem. Are they opening on the downwind? Or over the runway? Talk
to the jump operation, maybe something can be worked out to ease your
concerns. I've been hauling jumpers quite a while, there are idiot jump
pilots just as there are idiot pilots in all aspects of aviation. The
only "problems" I've encountered with other pilots have been people
who've made incorrect assumptions about skydivers, skydiving and jump
pilots. Skydivers don't want to die anymore than any other person. We
also realize that we suffer from "bad PR" and the vast majority work to
correct that.

After 40 years of operating my airplanes out of a field with jumpers, I gotta tell
ya it got really old a long time ago...

You should go make a jump. G

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html