How old is too old to fly?

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?


I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.

It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue to
drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many pilots
also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get regular
instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to review
all doctor visits with the medical examiner.

Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.

Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
certificates.

Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer, but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have medications
or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot fly
even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically handicapped
that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
instructor on board.

Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?

Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often belong
to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with that
fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years. He
could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
for a BFR.

His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling. It
hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that selling
the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by his
bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and he
owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
last to tell him otherwise.

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message
...
I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
so... :-)

"Doug Carter" wrote in message
...
On 2004-03-05, G.R. Patterson III wrote:


"R. Hubbell" wrote:

I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can do it
safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of my safe flying
when I'm on the tail end of my years.

That's why they have BFRs.

Puts a lot of pressure on the CFI's. I hope the 20 year old CFI that I
dotter into for my last BFR has the nerve to refuse to sign off.

I was waiting at an FBO one afternoon and happened to overhear a very
grey (I'm *only* 53, just a sprout) pilot chat with a much older CFII
(who hung up his spurs later that year) about his (the pilots) most
recent gear up landing then go on to arrainge for his BFR...

Still, hell of a lot better system than auto licences.

Well, I am a 53 year old CFI and I don't have a problem with telling you
when to hang it up. Neither do the 20 year olds who are my colleagues.

Actually, it isn't really all that difficult. You go out and do the BFR. The
guy can't do the maneuvers to standards, so you schedule additional
training. But he doesn't seem able to improve. Sooner or later the client is
going to tell you that he is quitting. Once your BFR runs over 10 hours and
you still haven't got those steep turns and stalls to private pilot
standards, you will know. You are done flying without an instructor.

C J Campbell wrote:

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message
...
I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
so... :-)

Damn! Wish I'd thought of that line.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

C J Campbell wrote:

If you have to start lying to the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time.

Or if you keep postponing seeing a doctor about some problem you have because
you're afraid the diagnosis will disqualify you.

"Honest, honey, it's just a little gas."

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

Roger Tracy wrote:


I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.



I *knew* you were about 15! :-)



ROFL!

Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?


I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.

It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue
to
drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many
pilots
also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get
regular
instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to
review
all doctor visits with the medical examiner.

Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.

Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to
the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
certificates.

Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer,
but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to
fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have
medications
or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot
fly
even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically
handicapped
that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
instructor on board.

Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?

Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often
belong
to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with
that
fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years.
He
could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
for a BFR.

His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling.
It
hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that
selling
the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by
his
bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and
he
owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
last to tell him otherwise.

I think you've got that completely wrong.

Should be 49.

:-)

John

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Roger Tracy" wrote in message
...
I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
so... :-)

This may sound like a wild tale, so I'm donning the flame suit. My
uncle was an active CFI into his early 90's. For a time he was the
oldest active pilot in the U.S.A. There were several write ups in the
OKC paper about him over his life. Once, as a child he helped Charles
Lindberg push his airplane out of a muddy field. Late in his life he
attended a reunion at CHK where he'd been a civilian flight instructor
during WWII. Many of his students were on the field. They couldn't
believe it when he landed his own airplane and walked up to them,
several years their senior when they themselves were in their late
70's and 80's. He sold his last airplane, (a Skylane) when he was 96.
He passed away at 99. Moral of the story... never, never, ever sell
your airplane.

p.s. Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone fly this late in their
life! This is just one data point.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R


"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal
limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep
fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?

I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".

I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.


I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
did notice. Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
I suppose.

R. Hubbell

I read a blurb in this morning's paper about age and cognitive ability.
It stated that tests have shown that as a person ages, his/her ability
to perform multiple tasks simultaneously diminishes. (Time to complete
the tasks increase.)
The example given is to stand on one foot while saying the alphabet
backwards.
Sounds like a test with a prize to be awarded at this summer's
rec.aviation.piloting party at AirVenture. Practice up if you plan to
attend. There will be a weighted point system depending on the beverage,
it's alcohol content and volume consumed prior to testing.