The price of gas

"leslie" wrote in message
...
Cub Driver ) wrote:
:
: How measured?
:
: Productivity is measured by the factors that measure productivity.
: Basically, you divide Gross National Product by hours worked, adjust
: for inflation, etc etc.
:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-13.htm
Exposing the Conservative Straw Man - "Productivity"

"Exposing the Conservative Straw Man - "Productivity"
by Thom Hartmann

[snip]

Conservatives don't want you to know this, and - even more
frenetically - are working to prevent any discussion of
"protectionist" tariffs on labor. Their main argument - a straw man -
is that "productivity" is responsible for the loss of American jobs,

That's interesting, consider that's not the arguments I've heard.

not a fundamental realignment in the rules of the game of business
starting in the Reagan era and climaxing with NAFTA and GATT/WTO.

[rest of brushed off version of Marx's "Labor Theory of Value" snipped.

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Peter Gottlieb opined

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...
When it is profitable enough then more refining capacity will be
built.

Don't think so. Couldn't do it if they if they wanted to. If the regs
were
"relaxed", it would still be prohibitive after the cost of dealing with
the
regs were amortized.


If refining is so incredibly expensive here then why isn't the refining
being done where it is cheaper and the final product shipped here for
consumption?

WE are importing refined products from Europe and Venezuala. 10 or 20%,
IIRC.
But it is an inflexible pipeline, and some overseas refineries are not
willing
to upgrade in order to produce the latest EPA mandated concoctions.

The logical conclusion is that refining here, with all the regulations,
is
still economically favorable as compared to refining elsewhere.

The conclusion might be at the end of your previous paragraph.

I've heard that US refineries are operating at damn near 100% of ALLOWED
capacity. Can anyone verify that?

Luskin is just talking his book. A lot of what's in the article is
distorted half truths like the reserve information.

Mike
MU-2

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...

The source you asked for:

http://smartmoney.com/aheadofthecurv...story=20040521

BTW, he's doing a correction that the "Quadrillion" BTU's should have been
"Billion".

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...
I agree that refining capacity has been impacted by various
enviornmental
regs. These haven't affected drilling (and hence production) much
though.


Environmental regs haven't affected drilling? Are you kidding?



Let's see...where have I been. I was an energy analyst for about a decade
and since then I have made a reasonable living investing in energy
companies. Where have you been? Listening to AM radio?

Mike
MU-2

Input into refineries is consumption. Nobody except refineries buys crude.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
So you don't have a source?


Hold on...

You keep using PRODUCTION while I'm talking about CONSUMPTION.

Mike
MU-2

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
Are you sure about this data? I don't have data back to 1978 but
input
into
refineries has gone from 11.7 million barrels a day to 15.9 from
1982
through last week. I find it hard to believe that petroleum
consumption
dropped by 1/3 from 1978 to 1982
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/ftparea/wogirs/xls/psw10vwcr.xls'

Mike
MU-2

CONSUMED!

And remember the price skyrocketing from 1978...the lines around the
corner?

That's also when the Detroit battleships went a gleaming...


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
. net...
What I do know is that the heavy use of oil has had adverse
environmental
effects and has created dangerous instability in the Middle
East.
I
believe
that it would be in this country's best interests to somehow
decrease
reliance on foreign oil, and preferrably, reduce oil usage
overall.
I
do
not know the best way to accomplish those goals.

"Over time, thanks to technology, we've gotten much more efficient
in
the
way we use gasoline, oil, and energy of all kinds. In 1974 when
the
first
"oil crisis" hit, it took over 17 quadrillion BTUs of energy to
produce
$1
million of gross domestic product (measured in constant year-2000
dollars).
Today it takes less then 10 quadrillion BTUs.

One more statistic: in 1978 the US consumed over 18 million
barrels
of
oil
every day, when annual GDP was $5 trillion. Today we use only 10%
more
oil
every day than we did then, but GDP has more than doubled to
almost
$11
trillion."

High real estate prices on the west coast have halted refinery construction
there as much as anything else. All factors are in play of
course...permitting requirements, local opposition, tax climate, the price
of steel, the non-desirablility of living next door to a refinery. When all
these variables are considered, there is a price level where a new refinery
will be built. When we get there, the refinery will be built.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Ra1sc.10707$af3.571010@attbi_s51...
When it is profitable enough then more refining capacity will be built.
On
the production side, the market is telling you that it is not very
attractive to drill at recent prices.

I was under the impression that restrictive EPA regulations had
essentially
halted new refinery construction?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"In a democracy, the people eventually get what they want." I don't know
who originally said that, but its true. The people have what they "PREFER".
The perfectly fair system is the one where everyone is equally unhappy.

Mike
MU-2

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...
At some price point it will
be favorable to either deal with this government's licensing and build
capacity here or to adjust the distribution and ship from refineries in
other countries. Or does simple economics break down when dealing with
oil?

But that price point wil be lower if the government simply gets out of the
way
and lets the market do it's thing, leaving us more money to spend on
avionics
or hookers or dentistry or whatever other item we would PREFER to spend
our
money to obtain.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Peter Gottlieb opined

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...
When it is profitable enough then more refining capacity will be
built.

Don't think so. Couldn't do it if they if they wanted to. If the regs
were
"relaxed", it would still be prohibitive after the cost of dealing with
the
regs were amortized.


If refining is so incredibly expensive here then why isn't the refining
being done where it is cheaper and the final product shipped here for
consumption?

WE are importing refined products from Europe and Venezuala. 10 or 20%,
IIRC.
But it is an inflexible pipeline, and some overseas refineries are not
willing
to upgrade in order to produce the latest EPA mandated concoctions.

The logical conclusion is that refining here, with all the regulations,
is
still economically favorable as compared to refining elsewhere.

The conclusion might be at the end of your previous paragraph.

I've heard that US refineries are operating at damn near 100% of ALLOWED
capacity. Can anyone verify that?


It is 90%+ of installed capacity. Which leaves very little room for error.

In 1981, according to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association,
321 refineries pumped out 18.6 million barrels a day of gasoline. Today
only 149 refineries, run by 60 companies in 33 different states, pump out
16.8 million barrels of gasoline daily - almost 2 million barrels a day
less. They are operating at 93 percent of capacity, well above the
industrial average, with little time left for maintenance and upgrades.

Tom Bray, Washington Times


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

Tom Sixkiller ) wrote:
:
: "leslie" wrote in message
: ...
: Cub Driver ) wrote:
: :
: : How measured?
: :
: : Productivity is measured by the factors that measure productivity.
: : Basically, you divide Gross National Product by hours worked, adjust
: : for inflation, etc etc.
: :
:
: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-13.htm
: Exposing the Conservative Straw Man - "Productivity"
:
: "Exposing the Conservative Straw Man - "Productivity"
: by Thom Hartmann
:
: [snip]
:
: Conservatives don't want you to know this, and - even more
: frenetically - are working to prevent any discussion of
: "protectionist" tariffs on labor. Their main argument - a straw man -
: is that "productivity" is responsible for the loss of American jobs,
:
: That's interesting, consider that's not the arguments I've heard.
:
: not a fundamental realignment in the rules of the game of business
: starting in the Reagan era and climaxing with NAFTA and GATT/WTO.
:
: [rest of brushed off version of Marx's "Labor Theory of Value" snipped.
:

I didn't mention Marx at all. Communist China is no workers' paradise.

In 2004, the voters are going to elect a President who believes in
offshoring jobs and granting non-immigrant work visas, both supported
by corporate lobbyists.

Here's a good web site for those tracking offshoring:

http://www.goinstitute.org/news/index.shtml
GOInstitute.org - A peer-to-peer exchange for Outsourcing Professionals.

--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...
I agree that refining capacity has been impacted by various
enviornmental
regs. These haven't affected drilling (and hence production) much
though.


Environmental regs haven't affected drilling? Are you kidding?



Let's see...where have I been. I was an energy analyst for about a decade
and since then I have made a reasonable living investing in energy
companies. Where have you been? Listening to AM radio?


I don't get a good AM signal here.

Do your energy companies have to abide by more and more, or less and less
environmental regulation? Is it easier or harder to drill now than it was
back 30 or so years ago?

Ask your energy companies how mush they do new drilling now than they did in
years past.

Are you always so goddamn pompous?