[Rant Warning] Tailwheel Training

In article , C J Campbell wrote:
If that isn't one of the worst statements ever posted to this newsgroup I
don't know what is.

Yeah, well, we replace half a dozen tiedown rings a year, thanks to the
idiotic advice of people like you. I ought to send you the bill.

Then they must be being taught to suddenly pull the yoke to the stops
then.

The C172N I learned to fly in was flown enough to reach engine TBO every
2 years. For the 7 years I was in that club, the tiedown ring was never
replaced. The plane was tied down outside and therefore lots of people
looked at the ring. Landings were taught to be yoke-all-the-way back by
all the instructors I flew with.

I've perhaps got 500 landings in C172N models, and I've never dragged
the tiedown ring on the ground.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , C J Campbell wrote:
Personally, if there was one additional requirement that I think new
CFIs should meet before teaching is a long solo cross country of a good
1000NM. That way they are likely to have had to have made real world
weather decisions, have probably had to fly in mountainous terrain and
so forth. And my requirement would be to do it by mag compass, chart and
clock so they internalize the fundamentals of navigation too.

How do you fly 1000 miles on the Isle of Mann? :-)

Generally by doing that super scary over water thingy!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Greg Esres wrote

found 2 years (66 and 67 I think it was) that do Prohibit slips
with flaps.

Was it actually in the "Operating Limitations" section, or just
mentioned somewhere in the text of the POH? I'm just wondering if the
pilot who wrote the procedures of the book exceeded his authority in
using the word "prohibited". I couldn't find a "prohibited" placard
on my CD of type certificates for any 172 model.

I think that Greg has hit the nail on the head! I have just returned
from the airport where I retreived the "Owner's Manual" for the 1959
Cessna 172A that I regularly fly. While at the airport, I inspected
the cockpit for a placard pertaining to flaps and slips and found none.
Reviewing Section IV of the "Owner's Manual" titled "Operating
Limitations", which is the only *regulatory* section, I find no reference
to flaps other than the speeds for the flap operating range.
In Section III, "Operating Details", the following appears in a paragraph
titled "LANDING":
"Normal landings are made power off with any flap setting. Slips are
prohibited in full flap approaches because of a downward pitch encountered
under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle."

Section III is not regulatory and I feel, just as Greg, that the
author probably came under the influence of Rick Durden or one of his
predecessors. :-)

I still believe William Thompson's writings on the subject are as close to
the truth as we will discover. Posted below once again.

With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180, and C-172
we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps
deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his
seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution
note was placed in most of the owner's manuals under "Landings" reading
"Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30° due to a
downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-
slip angle, and center of gravity loadings". Since wing-low drift
correction in cross-wind landings is normally performed with a minimum flap
setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that
maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the transition of a strong
wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle
over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative
"upwash increment" from the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although
not stated in the owner's manuals, we privately encouraged flight
instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass on the
information to their students. This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes
hard to duplicate, but it was thought that a pilot should be aware of its
existence and know how to counter-act it if it occurs close to the ground.
When the larger dorsal fin was adopted in the 1972 C-172L, this side-slip
pitch phenomenon was eliminated, but the cautionary placard was retained.
In the higher-powered C-172P and C-R172 the placard was applicable to a
mild pitch "pumping" motion resulting from flap outboard-end vortex
impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of side-slip angle,
power, and airspeed.


Bob Moore

(JFLEISC) wrote in message ...


Right on! I guess the required placard that prohibits full flap slips doesn't
mean anything. Just what we need; Someone teaching students that it's "OK" to
do prohibited or unauthorized maneuvers. Dosen't matter if "he" can get away
with it. Reminds me of the guy who posted some time back about the instructor
who looped his Cessna during a lesson. If anyone ever did that while giving a
lesson to my wife I'd rat him out to the FAA at the least and wouldn't want to
consider the worst.

Jim,

Did C. J. Campbell teach you how to drive an airplane, on chance? ;-)

And C. J., you never did answer my earlier question.... how many
taildragger hours do *you* have?

-Dave Russell
8KCAB

Section III is not regulatory

Ah, thank you. Perhaps that solves the mystery.

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
(JFLEISC) wrote in message
...


Right on! I guess the required placard that prohibits full flap slips
doesn't
mean anything. Just what we need; Someone teaching students that it's
"OK" to
do prohibited or unauthorized maneuvers. Dosen't matter if "he" can get
away
with it. Reminds me of the guy who posted some time back about the
instructor
who looped his Cessna during a lesson. If anyone ever did that while
giving a
lesson to my wife I'd rat him out to the FAA at the least and wouldn't
want to
consider the worst.

Jim,

Did C. J. Campbell teach you how to drive an airplane, on chance? ;-)

No. My students do slips with flaps. Actually, my students do slips very
well. I do not, however, teach prohibited or unauthorized maneuvers.


And C. J., you never did answer my earlier question.... how many
taildragger hours do *you* have?

Only about two, unfortunately, mostly in a Hyperbipe. You offering a ride?

Now, what would be really fun would be to get that Fairchild PT-28 that we
have for sale, although Mike says it is not a really good airplane for
spins -- it stretches the fabric on the fuselage and causes wrinkles.

wrote in message Deb, ease up for
pete's sake. I didn't mean that the feet weren't on the rudder pedals, ....
If your airplane requires constant rudder pressure to center the ball
during normal cruise, something is wrong.

Didn't mean to sound heavy ;-). Actually, nothing is wrong with my airplane.
It flies as it should, but I have wing tanks that are operated on right or
left, never both. As my fuel burns, I have to compensate with my control
inputs. I try to compensate this by using the tank that has the most weight
on that side (typically my passenger side, if occupied) As I posted earlier,
the controls in a Luscombe are so sensitive that the pilot hardly notices
the correction.

The 8A with a fuselage tank doesn't have this problem, but a stock version
is so light that it has to be dead calm to remove your feet from the rudders
for any length of time. I have trouble with my feet cramping or falling
asleep on really long crosscountries.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

"Dave Russell" wrote in message

Right on! I guess the required placard that prohibits full flap slips
doesn't
mean anything.


It means you have the wrong placard.

Exactly!

For most of us flying is a sport, it's fun and it's challenging. It's how
we get juiced up.

Each airplane has it's own set of lessons to teach. Now I'm one of those
who can read something in a book or take a lesson but often need some real
personal experience to internalize why we do or don't do something.

The Taylorcraft taught me some extremely valuable lessons as has the Arrow.
Each has its own charms and warts. The experience in each different
aircraft has reenforced the other. Each has made me a better pilot but
they offer a completely different set of experiences.


- Carl -

Dan Thomas wrote:
The 172's rudder is mostly cosmetic, I think.

Now *that* is classic .sig material!

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com