Another Cirrus 'chute deployment

In article , Dan Luke wrote:

sigh All right, I'll start digging. I know I've read that CD factory
pilots have recovered from spins many times: I'll find it. And BTW,
why are spin recovery procedures given in the POH?

This is apparently one of those questions like "what color was Grant's
gray horse." There aren't any spin recovery procedures in at least a
three year old SR-20 POH. It says the only recovery method is to deploy
the chute.

Have they added procedures to newer handbooks?

Mike Beede

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote:
None of the Cirrus models will recover from a spin.

Oh, baloney, Chris.

If it is baloney, show me even one single instance where a Cirrus
recovered
from a spin.

sigh All right, I'll start digging. I know I've read that CD factory
pilots have recovered from spins many times: I'll find it. And BTW,
why are spin recovery procedures given in the POH?


Early manuals gave a theoretical method of spin recovery, but it has been
removed. The POH specifically says that the Cirrus has not been tested for
spin recovery, that intentional spins and recoveries are prohibited, and
that the only method approved for accidental spin recovery is deployment of
the BRS. Sounds an awful lot like "won't recover from a spin and has never
demonstrated recovery from a spin" to me.

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Meanwhile, what backup have you got for your assertion that "None of the
Cirrus models will recover from a spin?" Certification standards
applied to the airplanes don't count.

All of the manuals contain language similar to the following:
Spins

The SR20 is not approved for spins, and has not been tested or

certified for spin recovery characteristics. The only approved and

demonstrated method of spin recovery is activation of the Cirrus

Airframe Parachute System (See CAPS Deployment, this section).

Because of this, if the aircraft “departs controlled flight”, the CAPS

must be deployed.

While the stall characteristics of the SR20 make accidental entry into a

spin extremely unlikely, it is possible. Spin entry can be avoided by

using good airmanship: coordinated use of controls in turns, proper

airspeed control following the recommendations of this Handbook, and

never abusing the flight controls with accelerated inputs when close to

the stall (see Stalls, Section 4).

If, at the stall, the controls are misapplied and abused accelerated

inputs are made to the elevator, rudder and/or ailerons, an abrupt wing

drop may be felt and a spiral or spin may be entered. In some cases it

may be difficult to determine if the aircraft has entered a spiral or the

beginning of a spin.

• WARNING •

In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from

which recovery is not expected before ground impact,

immediate deployment of the CAPS is required.

The minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS

deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet. Activation at

higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for

parachute recoveries. Do not waste time and altitude trying to

recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS.

Inadvertent Spin Entry

1. CAPS
.................................................. ...........................
...... Activate

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...
C J Campbell wrote:
There is not enough rudder
authority to recover. The Cirrus has never demonstrated a spin recovery,
though it has been tried.

I don't believe either of these statements are correct - if you have
references agreeing with you, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

In fact, the SR22 POH says: "If time and altitude permit, the following
procedures may be used to determine whether the aircraft is in a
recoverable
spiral/incipient spin or is unrecoverable and, therefore, has departed
controlled flight." It then goes on to give the spin recovery checklist:

1. Power Lever .................IDLE
2. Control Yoke ............... Neutral
3. Rudder ......................... Briskly Apply Opposite Yaw/Spin
Direction

It does not say that. What it says is:

Spins

The SR22 is not approved for spins, and has not been tested or

certified for spin recovery characteristics. The only approved and

demonstrated method of spin recovery is activation of the Cirrus

Airframe Parachute System (See CAPS Deployment, this section).

Because of this, if the aircraft “departs controlled flight,” the CAPS

must be deployed.

While the stall characteristics of the SR22 make accidental entry into a

spin extremely unlikely, it is possible. Spin entry can be avoided by

using good airmanship: coordinated use of controls in turns, proper

airspeed control following the recommendations of this Handbook, and

never abusing the flight controls with accelerated inputs when close to

the stall (see Stalls, Section 4).

If, at the stall, the controls are misapplied and abused accelerated

inputs are made to the elevator, rudder and/or ailerons, an abrupt wing

drop may be felt and a spiral or spin may be entered. In some cases it

may be difficult to determine if the aircraft has entered a spiral or the

beginning of a spin.

• WARNING •

In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from

which recovery is not expected before ground impact,

immediate deployment of the CAPS is required.

The minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS

deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet. Activation at

higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for

parachute recoveries. Do not waste time and altitude trying to

recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS.

Inadvertent Spin Entry

1. CAPS
.................................................. ...........................
...... Activate

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

-snip-
That wing will have a higher
angle of attack than the other; it will stall without warning and the
airplane will immediately begin to roll into a spin, possibly even inverted.
-snip-

Remember, it's not really established in the spin until you've made at
least a couple of turns (it's all about inertia). A simple wing drop
and roll/yaw excursion is just a spin entry or incipient spin. The
question about the Cirrus' recovery characteristics is still open
IMHO. If you manage to get the airplane stalled and drop a wing in a
big way, will it still just fly out of the stall if you apply
aggressive forward stick? How about after a half turn? What about a
full turn?

While it's possible that the airplane will not recover from a
developed spin, that does not mean to me that one couldn't recover
from a stall-wing-drop-roll scenario with just an authoritative push
and roll to upright. (Ever crossed over from an upright to inverted
spin by using a 'normal' entry and then driving the nose through as
the wings roll knife-edge? If you're not positive on the controls, it
can just wallow along and fall out into a mushy dive.)

-Dave Russell
8KCAB

The old fashioned way works fine for me.... strap the 'chute to your
ass instead of the airplane. It makes the "pull or not to pull"
question easy (if you are in free-fall, pull).

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
There's a William K. Graham listed as a certified training instructor
on the Cirrus Design web site. He's from San Diego. Anyone want to bet
that is the same guy in the article? If so, Mr. Graham is a CFI and is
instrument rated, which makes the description of the incident all that
more puzzling.

Not really. He did exactly what I would expect a flight instructor to do.
When he got into an emergency, he followed the manual, not the theories of a
bunch of armchair pilots on Usenet who think they know better than the
aircraft designer on what to do when a Cirrus spins.

So you don't find an IFR-rated flight instructor going into a spin
during cruise flight puzzling?

"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
There's a William K. Graham listed as a certified training instructor
on the Cirrus Design web site. He's from San Diego. Anyone want to bet
that is the same guy in the article? If so, Mr. Graham is a CFI and is
instrument rated, which makes the description of the incident all that
more puzzling.

Not really. He did exactly what I would expect a flight instructor to
do.
When he got into an emergency, he followed the manual, not the theories
of a
bunch of armchair pilots on Usenet who think they know better than the
aircraft designer on what to do when a Cirrus spins.

So you don't find an IFR-rated flight instructor going into a spin
during cruise flight puzzling?

No. Not in severe turbulence. Note that he was descending rapidly because of
the turbulence. If he was attempting to maintain a level attitude he would
have had a very high angle of attack, probably much higher than he realized.
The Cirrus is more stall and spin resistant than most airplanes, but it is
not invulnerable. What I find curious is that a flight instructor flew into
there in the first place, but I have to admit having flown into conditions
that I should not have, too. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes. It is
probably asking too much that we never make mistakes in the first place. It
is too bad he lost the airplane, but I think the performance of the Cirrus
in this incident was commendable. It saved his butt when he went poking his
nose where he shouldn't. I can think of a few other airplanes that might
have broken up in flight under similar circumstances.

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

-snip-
That wing will have a higher
angle of attack than the other; it will stall without warning and the
airplane will immediately begin to roll into a spin, possibly even
inverted.
-snip-

Remember, it's not really established in the spin until you've made at
least a couple of turns (it's all about inertia). A simple wing drop
and roll/yaw excursion is just a spin entry or incipient spin. The
question about the Cirrus' recovery characteristics is still open
IMHO. If you manage to get the airplane stalled and drop a wing in a
big way, will it still just fly out of the stall if you apply
aggressive forward stick? How about after a half turn? What about a
full turn?

While it's possible that the airplane will not recover from a
developed spin, that does not mean to me that one couldn't recover
from a stall-wing-drop-roll scenario with just an authoritative push
and roll to upright. (Ever crossed over from an upright to inverted
spin by using a 'normal' entry and then driving the nose through as
the wings roll knife-edge? If you're not positive on the controls, it
can just wallow along and fall out into a mushy dive.)


Right. It is not necessarily true that a stall will result in a spin. The
Cirrus requires considerable force to enter a spin. It can be done, as was
demonstrated, but it is not easy. I don't think it is far wrong to say that
some other planes would break up in flight if subjected to the same types of
forces. In this case the buffeting was so severe that the pilot probably had
little to no control over the airplane. Stalls are usually benign and the
ailerons remain effective throughout a normal stall.

Cirrus training now emphasizes using CAPS the moment that the airplane
enters a spiral or spin. The maneuver limitations say this:

Maneuver Limits

Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are prohibited.

.. Note .

Because the SR22 has not been certified for spin recovery, the Cirrus
Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) must be deployed if the airplane departs
controlled flight. Refer to Section 3 - Emergency Procedures, Inadvertent
Spiral/Spin Entry.

This airplane is certified in the normal category and is not designed for
aerobatic operations. Only those operations incidental to normal flight are
approved. These operations include normal stalls, chandelles, lazy eights,
and turns in which the angle of bank is limited to 60°.

Cirrus does have procedures for practicing and recovering from stalls:

Stalls

SR22 stall characteristics are conventional. Power-off stalls may be
accompanied by a slight nose bobbing if full aft stick is held. Power-on
stalls are marked by a high sink rate at full aft stick. Power-off stall
speeds at maximum weight for both forward and aft C.G. positions are
presented in Section 5 - Performance Data.

When practicing stalls at altitude, as the airspeed is slowly reduced, you
will notice a slight airframe buffet and hear the stall speed warning horn
sound between 5 and 10 knots before the stall. Normally, the stall is marked
by a gentle nose drop and the wings can easily be held level or in the bank
with coordinated use of the ailerons and rudder. Upon stall warning in
flight, recovery is accomplished by immediately by reducing back pressure to
maintain safe airspeed, adding power if necessary and rolling wings level
with coordinated use of the controls.

.. WARNING .

Extreme care must be taken to avoid uncoordinated, accelerated or abused
control inputs when close to the stall, especially when close to the ground.

C J Campbell wrote:
Cirrus models will recover from a spin. The only spin recovery
method in the manual is to deploy the parachute.

BOGUS INFORMATION ALERT!

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Stefan,


I didn't know this.



Because it is not true.

Thomas, you're absolutely correct. I hope folks wake up to the fact
that CJ really has no clue as to what he's talking about when it comes
to matters Cirri. I've personally talked with test pilots who flew the
Cirrus SR-20 and 22 during certification. They're not walking on the
rooftops and shouting this statement, but the Cirrus SR-22 will recover
conventionally from many multi-turn spin scenarios. The chute provided
an alternative method of compliance which saved the company many
millions of dollars and months of certification effort at a point where
saving money and time was critically important to the longevity of the
company. That is the only reason it is included in the spin recovery
procedure. The current AFM procedure is to FIRST attempt conventional
spin recovery techniques, and if those fail, to deploy the chute.

Cirrus is understandably mute on this issue due to liability concerns.
Until conventional recovery is approved (if ever), they will NEVER say,
"Sure, the airplane will recover normally from spins!" I've never spun
a 20 or 22 and I have no intention of ever doing so, because spins are a
prohibited maneuver per the AFM. But wake up and engage the noggin,
folks, if you think this airplane is somehow magically incapable of
recovering from spins!

-Ryan
ATP/Cirrus Standardized Instructor