Student night solo?

(Michael) wrote in message om...
(Robert M. Gary) wrote
Sure - but basic night flying isn't one of them. In other countries
it's a separte rating, and that's fine - but in the US it's something
we expect at the private level.

With the amount of training we give students the should be able to
safely return home even if it gets dark. However, if they plan on
flying a lot of cross countries to unfamiliar airports they may want
to consider getting more than the minimum. I don't have a problem
providing more training but most students aren't interested in that
during their primary training. Most of my students are working
professionals so the time difference between night training and
checkride is often 6 months. Going 6 months without flying at night is
hard for any rated pilot.

And this is why I have a real problem with this blanket acceptance of
no night solo.

I would not have a problem soloing a student at night but would
normally require some additional training. However, the FBOs I work
for prohibit students from flying at night solo so it doesn't make
much difference. I do often work with aircraft owners so that could
happen.

-Robert, CFI

Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:

Commented below look down!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Duniho"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Student night solo?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes
the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him
fly with passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the
checkride?

As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
passanger evaluating the student.

I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
instruction time.



No, the examiner is a passenger. The checkride endorsement allows the
student carry a passenger for the purpose of taking the practical test.


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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 5...



No, the examiner is a passenger.

Where in the FARs does it say the examiner is a passenger? The examiner is
the examiner.

"C J Campbell" wrote in
:


"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 5...



No, the examiner is a passenger.

Where in the FARs does it say the examiner is a passenger? The
examiner is the examiner.



True, the examiner is the examiner. But for all practical purposes he
should be treated as a passenger, and is the first person other than an
instructor the student is authorized to carry.


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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 5...
No, the examiner is a passenger. The checkride endorsement allows the
student carry a passenger for the purpose of taking the practical test.

The examiner is NOT a passenger. As CJ says, he's the examiner. Mark's
post was in error, as I already pointed out. But yours is as well.

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
With the amount of training we give students the should be able to
safely return home even if it gets dark. However, if they plan on
flying a lot of cross countries to unfamiliar airports they may want
to consider getting more than the minimum.

Sorry, don't buy it. The IFR training we give is emergency training
for making it home, the night training we give includes planning and
executing an actual night XC flight. I see no reason why it would not
be enough to attain basic night proficiency. It was enough for me,
and for most students I know. Yes, there are occasional exceptions.

There are also those who need more than the three hours mandated to
attain emergency instrument proficiency (and some who need much less).
Tell me - if there was no instrument flying on the checkride would
you sign off those who had the three hours but had not achieved
proficiency? Or suppose you knew the student was cheating
(intentionally or otherwise) because he could not maintain control on
instruments on an overcast night, but did fine in the daytime - would
you sign him off? Or would you insist he either get it right at night
(when he can't cheat) or stop at the recreational?

Most of my students are working
professionals so the time difference between night training and
checkride is often 6 months. Going 6 months without flying at night is
hard for any rated pilot.

Sure it is - a low time pilot anyway. I don't think this should be a
factor for two reasons.

First, night training, like instrument training, should be done
towards the end of the training cycle, not months before the
checkride. This is advanced training, and the student will get little
out of it if he is not already day-VFR proficient. In fact, I can
easily see why a student might need more than three hours of night
training for night proficiency if those hours come months before he is
ready for the checkride.

Second, once the night training is complete, there is no reason why
those working professionals should not fly solo at night - then there
would be no reason for the six month gap.

Now I understand that some FBO's have a problem with this - and
frankly, that's one of the many reasons I prefer not to deal with an
FBO - compromising the quality of training in order to comply with
their rules sticks in my craw. But if you must deal with an FBO that
has such rules, then simply do night/instrument as the last thing.

I would not have a problem soloing a student at night but would
normally require some additional training.

And I have a real problem with this.

Either the student is competent for night flight without an
instructor, or he isn't. If he isn't, how can you endorse him for the
checkride? If he is, why not give him a night solo endorsement?

Michael

First, night training, like instrument training, should be done
towards the end of the training cycle,

Of course everything should be done at the end of training but when
some students take 2 years to get through their private, its hard to
do everything the month before the checkride. Its just the reality of
the training env we are in. People plan to fly once a week but work,
weather, family get in the way and its not unusual for students to be
gone for over a month. Since night isn't tested in actual on the
checkride, CFIs tend to focus on the things the DE will be asking them
the next month.


-Robert

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
Of course everything should be done at the end of training

Well, no. Slow flight and stalls should be done at the beginning.
Ground reference maneuvers should be done at the beginning. Steep
turns should be done at the beginning. Those things develop the
student's ability to feel the airplane (primarily for trim), fly a
pattern, and land the airplane, and that comes first.

Visits to other airports should be done in the middle. Pilotage, dead
reckoning, and VOR navigation should be done in the middle. Daytime
XC should be done in the middle.

And the advanced topics - instrument and night - should be done at the
end.

Since night isn't tested in actual on the
checkride, CFIs tend to focus on the things the DE will be asking them
the next month.

And once again, I have a problem with this. If the DE won't be
testing it, that means you should be paying more, not less, attention
to it. You're not training the student to pass a checkride, you're
training him to exercise the privileges of the certificate.

If his turns around a point are sloppy, so what? The point was to
teach him to fly a ground track so he could fly a reasonable pattern.
If this has happened, the maneuver has served its purpose. The WORST
that can possibly happen is that it's bad enough on that particular
day that he busts - and that's a reach. If his night flying skills
are sloppy, really bad things can happen when dinner at the in-laws
runs late...

Michael

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:
As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
passanger
evaluating the student.

I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
instruction time.

In the UK, this time is logged as P1(S). The (S) is "under supervision".
Still counts as P1 time.

Paul

"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

Not sure about now, but when I did my UK night rating, a certain
amount of solo night flying was mandatory before obtaining the
rating.

Paul