Female pilot accident rates

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:06:35 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

Mathematical ability. Studies among
mathematically gifted students reveal that
males outnumber females among the supe-
rior achievers. According to Johns Hop-
kins researchers Camilla Benbow and Julian
Stanley, "We favor the hypothesis that sex
differences in achievement in and attitude
toward mathematics result from superior
male mathematical ability, which may in
turn be related to greater male ability in
spatial tasks."

Not sure when this study was completed Bob, and I'm also not sure what
age group the study you reference covers, but the information I just
saw two days ago cited just the opposite. Girls were testing MUCH
higher than boys in elementary school. Sometimes the difference
carries into high school and college, but at some point hormones and
interest in the opposite sex sort of cuts off the competition. As
elementary school girls, boys were not an issue, studying was. But
when they hit puberty, suddenly girls do not want to do better than
boys in class, and the old "no one likes a smarty pants" issue,
believe it or not, seems to still prevail.

Corky Scott

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:



NoPoliticsHere wrote:

Anonymity
is more likely to bring honesty, as far as inner opinions. Most people
who post with real names make sure they walk the line they've been told
to walk.

So someone who's lying about who they are is somehow more honest than someone who
doesn't lie? Not hardly. As far as I can tell, people post pretty much what they
think and/or feel -- it's not like there's some sort of police coming to get someone
who posts a PIC opinion. It just seems that many of those with the most extreme
opinions seem to be ashamed of them and don't want anyone to know who they are.

George Patterson

What about that yellow coward Brooks who did an abrupt U-turn on
Itzreali after some threats? And others. Buttlickers. Yellow
filth.

Grantland

Ed Rasimus missed the boat:


Another woman I've met, entered service as an F-15E WSO, then after
flying combat in Kosovo, got selected for pilot training. She's now an
F-16 pilot in my old squadron, the 421st TFS. At River Rats in
Nashville last year, a group of male aviators--all still active in the
fighter force--told me (without prompting or politically correct
superiors hovering nearby) that "most of us have to work our asses off
just to be mediocre, she is outstanding without even trying". They
wouldn't say such things without good reason.

Heh heh!

G

Bottom line:

1) Develop meaningful performance standards applicable to relevant
skillsets for the positions; and
2) Follow them.

Of course, "the rub" is that if we actually did that in the military, we
would immediately see two huge problems:

1) Various special interest groups (sub groups of various
sex/gender/cultural/ethnic identities etc.) would perform equally to
everyone else meeting the same standards. Not actually a problem unless you
are some kind of a bigot.

and

2) At least temporarily, some of these same special interest groups would
appear to be "under-represented" in various positions. Ditto; also not
actually a problem unless you are some kind of a bigot.

What to do, what to do . . . oh my, what to do . . . ? The interesting
question for me is exactly why following 1) and 2) above should be so damn
controversial and "non PC."

Steve Swartz

(Note: the bigots perceiving either 1) or 2) to be a problem would actually
be very different people, more than likely.)






"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
" wrote

I like to fly, but I daresay I don't have whatever it takes to fly an
F-14 in carrier operations. But then, *statistically*, you don't
either. Very few people do.

From a former Naval Aviator.
Being an excellent fighter pilot and landing on an aircraft carrier
is much different than flying jetliners from JFK to ORD.
It's all about "Spatial Orientation", a trait that the Navy tested
for extesively during the training process.

I have posted this previously....here it is again.


The Brain, Richard Restak, M.D.

Based on the PBS Series, "The Brain"


Brain-Sex Differences: Are They Real?

Men generally have better spatial function
than women. This refers to the ability to
mentally visualize and maneuver objects
within three-dimensional space. But among
men who don't produce the male sex hor-
mone testosterone, spatial abilities are poorly
developed. According to Harvard neurolo-
gist Norman Geschwind, "It is very impor-
tant to stress that there are women who
have absolutely superb spatial function and
there are plenty of men whose spatial func-
tion is abysmal. But on the average, men
have better spatial function than women.
One practical consequence involves the dif-
ficulties some people experience in the
immediate discrimination between right and
left. In one study twice as many women as
men reported "frequent" problems in rap-
idly deciding about right-left issues (turning
right at a fork in the road, quickly respond-
ing when asked to raise the right or left
hand, and so on).
Other areas in which brain-sex differ-
ences play a prominent but by no means
exclusive role include:
Language facility. Females generally
speak earlier, learn foreign languages more
easily, and outperform males in tests of
verbal fluency.
Fine hand control. From an early age,
rapid sequential movements are performed
better by girls, who, as a result, exhibit
better penmanship than boys of the same
age.
Mathematical ability. Studies among
mathematically gifted students reveal that
males outnumber females among the supe-
rior achievers. According to Johns Hop-
kins researchers Camilla Benbow and Julian
Stanley, "We favor the hypothesis that sex
differences in achievement in and attitude
toward mathematics result from superior
male mathematical ability, which may in
turn be related to greater male ability in
spatial tasks."
Dyslexia, stuttering, delayed speech, au-
tism, hyperactivity...each of these neuro-
behavioral disorders occurs with greater
frequency in males.
Although the above sex differences are
well established, no one has as yet convinc-
ingly demonstrated an anatomic difference
between the brain structures of human
males and females. These behavioral differ-
ences may be the result of chemical changes
in brain function resulting from the influ-
ence of sex hormones in early prenatal
development.



Bob Moore

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:06:35 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

Mathematical ability. Studies among
mathematically gifted students reveal that
males outnumber females among the supe-
rior achievers. According to Johns Hop-
kins researchers Camilla Benbow and Julian
Stanley, "We favor the hypothesis that sex
differences in achievement in and attitude
toward mathematics result from superior
male mathematical ability, which may in
turn be related to greater male ability in
spatial tasks."

Not sure when this study was completed Bob, and I'm also not sure what
age group the study you reference covers, but the information I just
saw two days ago cited just the opposite. Girls were testing MUCH
higher than boys in elementary school.


That has to do with GameBoy and XBox, versus Math :-).

Robert,

Good grief, you mean they are still trying to smear the name of Lt.
Hultgreen? I guess a catastrophic engine failure on short final to
the carrier is so routine that any pilot could recover, but, as she
was a woman, she was suspect. Guess she should have joined the Guard
where she could and flown in Texas for a while, then moved to Alabama
and not bothered to even show up or take a flight physical so she
could get an honorable discharge.

Interesting events when the Army first trained women in helos. As was
done when the military was forced to integrate in the '50s, there were
those who didn't want "them" flying and did their best to flunk them
out despite the fact women had flown Army Air Force airplanes in WWII
after going through Army training. To the frustration of the
malcontents, the women helo trainees managed to complete the course
and obtain their wings. Not missing a beat, the Army then required
them to qualify for fixed wing ops, to get their commercial,
instrument, multi-engine training (equivalent to civilian ratings) in
a Baron in 60 days, as method of washing them out after they had their
wings. All of them did it. Once that hurdle was cleared, the Army
decided that they'd let the women fly and sent them off to the
squadrons where the ones I know tell me they were treated fairly.

All the best,
Rick

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message . com...
(NoPoliticsHere) wrote in message . com...
C Kingsbury wrote:

As a proud fascist right-wing capitalist pig, what I'd like to know is,
what's yer point? We've already allowed them to fly planes, drive cars, own
property, even vote, so what precisely is it you would like to see done
about the scourge of chick pilots?

That's easy. No special allowances for gender. Female pilots should
be held to the same standards as the guys. If that means two females
in one cockpit, so be it, but make it equitable.

The problem with that is that there are fewer women signing up for the
military to fly than men. In order for the military to quicky meet
their quota they were forced to allow women to fly that did not meet
the same standards or receive the same amount of training time. That
was the case of Lt. Kara S. Hultgreen. Its been about 10 years now, I
hope they've resolved that issue.

-Robert

I am shocked that Struldbrug MichelleP has not entered this fray
screeching. OTOH, maybe she has groundlooped that generic Maule and
doesn't relish the exposure. Or maybe busy at the time-- on the angel sides
of clouds with the angels or cobbling hobbits for humanity.

"Gig Giacona" wrote in message
...

"John Mazor" wrote in message
...
"Gig Giacona" wrote in message
...

"WaltBJ" wrote in message
om...
FWIW I trained women pilots transitioning to the L1011 while working
at Eastern. Without exception they were meticulous pilots who studied
hard and really learned the airplane. I also knew Betty Skelton - she
was a 'pretty good' woman pilot (understatement for effect).
Walt BJ

And how long was it after they transitioned women to the L-1011 that
the
company folded?

Frank Lorenzo wasn't a woman.

It's just to close to the damn elections. Everybody has lost thier ability
to see a joke.

I'm pretty well known in a.d.a. for my sense of humor, but if you're going
to float an insinuation that there was a connection between those two events
and expect it to be taken as a joke, well, as Gary Cooper said in "The
Virginian," "You better smile when you say that, pardner."

Corky Scott wrote in message . ..

Not sure when this study was completed Bob, and I'm also not sure what
age group the study you reference covers, but the information I just
saw two days ago cited just the opposite. Girls were testing MUCH
higher than boys in elementary school.

I've heard from reliable sources that the deck has been stacked against
little boys in grammar school since the '80s. This "information" you
saw two days ago supposedly citing just the opposite would immediately
come under suspicion to me, considering the politics of the last
couple of decades especially.

Sometimes the difference
carries into high school and college, but at some point hormones and
interest in the opposite sex sort of cuts off the competition. As
elementary school girls, boys were not an issue, studying was. But
when they hit puberty, suddenly girls do not want to do better than
boys in class, and the old "no one likes a smarty pants" issue,
believe it or not, seems to still prevail.

That wasn't the attitude when/where I attended high school (1970s). When I
was an undergrad physics major, I, like all physics majors, had to
take lots of upper-level mathematics courses in addition to all
the physics coursework. There were very, very few female physics
majors, even though they were already being encouraged to go into
the sciences at that time. And the few I encountered were never
the top drawer students in the class. However, there were larger
numbers of females in some of the math courses, and some of them were
good students. I remember one in particular who had a real flair for
the proofs that are such a big part of the branch of math called linear
algebra. She aced that senior-level course. I remember another
sharp girl in my one-variable integral calculus class that came early
in my college years. So, I speak from real experience on this.
But I believe that, generally, the average male student in those
math courses was better than the average female.

Another observation I made was that women generally have a much harder
time *applying* what they've learned in class to "real world" applications.

---------

C Kingsbury ) wrote:
: There was an NTSB study within the past four years that looked at this
: question. I'm going on memory here, but the aggregate accident rates were
: not different in a statistically significant way. But there was a suggestion
: that the causes of accidents were somewhat different across the two groups.
That is true. And I don't think the study was in the last 4 years.

: Women, it seemed, were more likely to be involved in accidents owing to
: mishandling the aircraft, while men were more likely to make serious
: judgment errors.
My take on reading part of it was that women were more likely to folow
procedures even when they weren't the best thing to do and men were
more likley not to follow procedures when they were the best thing to do.

So it depends on whats wrong and if the best solution is in the
manual.

This report came out about the time of the ValueJet 592 accident
(May 96) and I had wonder if the procedure of "return to a maintenance
base" hadn't been a factor. The plane was very close to the big
runway at Kennedy when it was clear that there was a fire on board
and Orlando was much closer than Miami.

-tim
http://web.abnormal.com