Female pilot accident rates

wrote in message
oups.com...
NoPoliticsHere wrote:

was an **Algerian** airline, not American, which lends even more
evidence that the woman was skilled and competent, as the PC politics
at work that I allude to is probably near non-existent in Algeria.

Oh my. You have obviously never been to a Muslim country. I am
astounded the woman ever got to fly, period. It isn't any wonder at
all the PIC didn't listen to her suggestions; men in those countries
tend to be a bit chauvinistic, if I may say so.

Gender bias may have played a role, but it may simply have been
old-fashioned captain's arrogance.

"NoPoliticsHere" wrote in message
om...
"John Mazor" wrote in message
...

Mr. Dipschitz needs to be a little more careful with his facts. Both
pilots
were out on medical.

Please elaborate.

He said "Delta Airlines had a couple of female pilots sitting at home
getting
full pay - one of which I flew with personally. They were fired for
incompetence."

"Sitting at home getting paid" suggests they were goofing off and managing
to collect a paycheck. No, he didn't specifically say that, but without any
clarification, the reader is invited to draw that conclusion.

According to my information, one was retired on the medical, not fired for
incompetence. I believe the other one is still on medical, although I'm
still trying to get definitive information.

Leaving aside these specific examples, there have been incompetent pilots
ever since there were airlines. If you could somehow determine the number
men and women pilots fired for incompetence, it would be a lose-lose
proposition for women. If comparatively more women were fired, Slo-mo would
say that was prima facie evidence that women as a class are inferior. If
there were comparatively fewer fired, you would cite that as proof that
they're being coddled because of PC.

NoPoliticsHere schreef in berichtnieuws ...
I haven't seen any stats on this, but it seems to me that, just
maybe, there could be a much higher rate of crashes when there
are ladies in the cockpit.

Yah right! We're all alone then, coz the male part of the cockpit crew get high testosteron level...




See what I mean?

-----------

Nope. I invite you to fly with me once, I'll let you press the eaten food right in your pants, your face will become colors you'd
never know it was possible, and the drink you had before will leak between your knees...

Oh yah, and we land safely.
And after that, you get time to recover and clean up your mess...

Deal?

"John Mazor" wrote in message ...

And what you refuse to admit is that the "proof" you offered for PC/quotas
in the cockpit doesn't prove anything, for all the reasons noted here.

I never claimed to admit any '"proof"' of anything; your word not mine.
I only stated an observation (possibly accurate). But when people
start trying to put words in my mouth, I don't see much point in debating.

Feel
free to make any case you want against PC, but it has to withstand the
rigors of close examination.

If you aren't aware by now that quotas exist (based on race & gender),
then what could I say?

For example, like you, I could make a
number-based case of gender discrimination simply by noting the small
percentage of pilots who are women - the MCPs are blocking the cockpit door!

No, you could only make a reasonable case by showing that it is common
practice for qualified women being turned down for pilot positions.
If you will re-read what I've written, mine was only an observation.
I do not intentionally fish out, or seek news stories where women have
been involved in crashes. It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

-------------------

" wrote in message roups.com...
NoPoliticsHere wrote:

was an **Algerian** airline, not American, which lends even more
evidence that the woman was skilled and competent, as the PC politics
at work that I allude to is probably near non-existent in Algeria.

Oh my. You have obviously never been to a Muslim country. I am
astounded the woman ever got to fly, period. It isn't any wonder at
all the PIC didn't listen to her suggestions; men in those countries
tend to be a bit chauvinistic, if I may say so.

My point exactly. This woman probably never got any breaks whatever
because of her gender, in that country. In Algeria, she probably
had to be an outstanding pilot to have even gotten the job.

--------------

NoPoliticsHere wrote:
My point exactly. This woman probably never got any breaks whatever
because of her gender, in that country. In Algeria, she probably
had to be an outstanding pilot to have even gotten the job.

That she had that job at all was due to PC pressures. Algeria, as a
former French colony, has a foot in the Western world. Otherwise there
is no way she would have been allowed to fly. I am in the Middle East,
and it is amazing how women- even Western women- are treated here. But
that's another subject entirely.

"NoPoliticsHere" wrote in message
om...
"John Mazor" wrote in message
...

And what you refuse to admit is that the "proof" you offered for
PC/quotas
in the cockpit doesn't prove anything, for all the reasons noted here.

I never claimed to admit any '"proof"' of anything; your word not mine.
I only stated an observation (possibly accurate). But when people
start trying to put words in my mouth, I don't see much point in debating.

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

Feel free to make any case you want against PC, but it has to withstand
the
rigors of close examination.

If you aren't aware by now that quotas exist (based on race & gender),
then what could I say?

I'm not aware of any "quotas". While having wome and minority pilots might
be deemed advantageous in terms of corporate image, and managements may have
taken pains to ensure that no discrimination exists at the hiring level,
that's hardly setting a quota. Are you saying that airlines have told their
people they must hire X number or X percentage of women and minority pilots?
Really? Which airlines? (I will admit that my knowledge is limited to U.S.
airlines.)

For example, like you, I could make a
number-based case of gender discrimination simply by noting the small
percentage of pilots who are women - the MCPs are blocking the cockpit
door!

No, you could only make a reasonable case by showing that it is common
practice for qualified women being turned down for pilot positions.

Thank you for agreeing with my point.

If you will re-read what I've written, mine was only an observation.
I do not intentionally fish out, or seek news stories where women have
been involved in crashes. It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect
dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

I have railed against PC for decades. It exists. But your example doesn't
stand up, for all the reasons previously discussed.

You praised Jose for carefully parsing the logic for not using your real
name on the Web, so you do understand the process, but unless you are
willing right now to admit that your "observation" is worthless, you are
unwilling to parse the logic that has been presented to you in this thread.

Find something else to illustrate PC. And take it elsewhere.

NoPoliticsHere wrote:
It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the
cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the
gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect
dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

-------------------

I am not a fan of quota systems of any kind- I think they ultimately do
a disservice to those they purport to help.

What you have done here is begun with a supposition (women are hired on
the basis of political correctness and not competence) and then worked
backwards in order support that supposition. That is the worst sort of
analysis possible. Furthermore, you attempted to present this faulty
argument in a forum that deals with a subject you admittedly know
nothing about. If you wish to be taken seriously- here or in life- you
must think things through objectively. You have, it would appear,
failed to do so.

"John Mazor" wrote in message ...

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

From

http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq7.htm

(The author on the Web page, a 747-400 captain, after first making the
required "cover my butt" statements so the PC police wouldn't come
after him, revealed some of the sobering facts):

-----begin paste-----

But that is the problem. I am aware of some cases where less than
competent female and/or minority pilots have been hired. In other
words, the standards were lowered to meet the numbers requirements
imposed by consent decrees with the EEOC.

In one case, a minority female was given almost 3 times the simulator
hours to pass her DC-10 S/O checkride, but couldn't do it (just about
the easiest position in any airline cockpit). Yet the airline was
terrified at the thought of firing her. Her boyfriend was an employee
of EEOC. She was still in her first (probation) year so union
protection wasn't a factor.

So what did the airline do? They mounted an intensive investigation
into her background (a tactic that could have gotten the airline into
big trouble if they had done it before they hired her), and discovered
she had been fired from 3 other airlines, but failed to reveal that on
her employment application. That was the ammunition needed to justify
her dismissal.

There are other stories, including the letter to AirlineSafety.Com, by
ATC controller John Dill and other letters published in AWST, by
controllers who believe diversity goals have harmed the competency
level of controllers.

I see the EEOC decrees to be the biggest threat against pilot
competency today, not because there aren't competent minority/female
pilots out there to be hired, but because quotas are imposed and
airlines sometimes have to lower their normal standards to achieve
those mandated numbers. If they don't, the EEOC sues them, costing
them many millions of dollars and it will result in the imposition of
even harsher mandates in the future to "remedy their past
discrimination."

----end paste---

And here's more on the subject. Please read it well as I want your
comments.

-------begin paste----------

If the airline has good simulators and good training programs, then
the biggest threat to competency is not in how much time various
pilots get during transition courses, but in how competent they were
when the airline first hired them. Very selective hiring (including
detailed background investigation) is the most effective tool to
heading off pilot competency problems in the future, yet that is the
tool that is called into question the most in "discrimination"
allegations against the airlines. And, the libel law has its effect
too. Previous airlines are afraid to disclose any negative information
about a discharged pilot, because lawyers make hay out of it and sue
the hell out of the employer that dares give a negative reference.

Some years ago, a female pilot alleged a constant pattern of sexual
harassment in the cockpit, naming numerous male pilots as defendants
in a Title Seven Civil Rights lawsuit. Her attorney was a rather
famous female rights specialist who makes extensive use of the media
to win her cases. The female pilot was exposed in the deposition
process when many contradictions were revealed. She finally confessed;
she made the whole thing up. She was a "weak sister" pilot, who had
competency problems and was afraid the airline might try to fire her.
Someone advised her that they wouldn't dare fire her if she made a
sexual harassment/civil rights claim.

Of course, once the truth was disclosed, she was fired. I have been
told she now works as a pilot for another major airline. Want to bet
on, whether or not the previous airline gave her a negative reference?

----end paste----

Well, so much for your PC claims....

-------------------

"NoPoliticsHere" wrote in message
om...
"John Mazor" wrote in message
...

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your
observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

From

http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq7.htm

Thank you for the interesting link. The case he cited involved a new hire,
not eligible yet for union representation, so it wouldn't have registered on
my radar.

(The author on the Web page, a 747-400 captain, after first making the
required "cover my butt" statements so the PC police wouldn't come
after him,

Ah. So when he says "I have flown with many minorities and females and have
not observed their level of competence to be any less than what I had seen
in the years preceding diversity" that's not true, just CYA. You want to
have the anecdote represent the truth but dismiss the wider observation.
(You do remember that word, "observation"?)

And all of his observations are just that, anecdotal. I've had my own
anecdotal observations over the years, and they include plenty of marginal
or incompetent pilots who happened to be male and gamed the system.

The only way to resolve this is a systematic scientific study. There are
studies that measure gender differences in various types of skills and
abilites, but I'm not aware of any that compare rates for training wash-outs
or accidents where pilot performance played a role. If you know of any, I'd
be happy to link to it.

But that is the problem. I am aware of some cases where less than
competent female and/or minority pilots have been hired. In other
words, the standards were lowered to meet the numbers requirements
imposed by consent decrees with the EEOC.

To the extent that it happens, I certainly can't agree with it. But again,
we're still in the world of anecdotal observations. So you have made a case
that it can happen, but then, plenty of incompetent males pilots game the
system, too.

And here's more on the subject. Please read it well as I want your
comments.

-------begin paste----------

If the airline has good simulators and good training programs, then
the biggest threat to competency is not in how much time various
pilots get during transition courses, but in how competent they were
when the airline first hired them.

That's a gross oversimplification. For example, as he pointed out himself,
a perfectly competent pilot who was hired to fly the "steam-gauge" B-727
cockpit might have a hard time transitioning to all-glass cockpits. Old
pilot joke, a modern twist on the even older one about what are the three
most common last words on the CVR: 1. "What's it doing???" 2. "What's it
doing NOW???" 3. "Why the hell did it do THAT???"

Very selective hiring (including
detailed background investigation) is the most effective tool to
heading off pilot competency problems in the future, yet that is the
tool that is called into question the most in "discrimination"
allegations against the airlines. And, the libel law has its effect
too. Previous airlines are afraid to disclose any negative information
about a discharged pilot, because lawyers make hay out of it and sue
the hell out of the employer that dares give a negative reference.

Which is why employers must carefull read the pilot's records from previous
employment. The FAA now requires them to get those records before hiring.

Some years ago, a female pilot alleged a constant pattern of sexual
harassment in the cockpit, naming numerous male pilots as defendants
in a Title Seven Civil Rights lawsuit. Her attorney was a rather
famous female rights specialist who makes extensive use of the media
to win her cases. The female pilot was exposed in the deposition
process when many contradictions were revealed. She finally confessed;
she made the whole thing up. She was a "weak sister" pilot, who had
competency problems and was afraid the airline might try to fire her.
Someone advised her that they wouldn't dare fire her if she made a
sexual harassment/civil rights claim.

Anecdotal observation, as previously discussed. If it floats your boat to
say "Gotcha!" on the anecdotes, go for it, but again, that's hardly an
indictment of female pilots as a class, any more that anecdotes about male
pilots who game the sytem are an indictment of male pilots as a class.

Of course, once the truth was disclosed, she was fired. I have been
told she now works as a pilot for another major airline. Want to bet
on, whether or not the previous airline gave her a negative reference?

"I have been told." Well, now we have an anecdote of unknowable accuracy,
but even if perfectly accurate, it still is an anecdote.

So we've gone from your broad insinuation about women pilots in general to a
few anecdotes. But let us come full circle on this exchange and have you
answer the question that you sidestepped at the top:

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

"I don't know" is an acceptable answer.