Co-pilot error caused AA 587 crash

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:14:42 GMT, "Allen"
wrote:

This is simply wrong! If you do a check the majority of "SUV" type vehicles
are not four wheel drive, although SOME of them are available as four wheel
drive.

Allen.

But they're still classified as light trucks. I have not seen a
single ad or commercial for a two wheel drive SUV.

Corky Scott

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:51:29 -0500, Chris W wrote:

Do you seriously think that snow and ice are the only reason to have
4WD? You need to get out of the city more.

Guffaw, I live in rural Vermont in the woods off a mile long uphill
dirt road. My wife and I have had no choice but to use 4WD vehicals
if we really want to get home every day. And we still find some days
when even that doesn't work, days when it's raining on top of slush,
on top of ice. Thankfully, those conditions don't occur often.

On steep mountain roads a
little rain can make 4WD helpful. Drive down a dirt road after some bad
rain often enough and you will wish eventually wish you had 4WD

Can't tell you how many 4WD vehicals go off the road up here in
northern NE because the owners assumed that that feature would keep
them on the road in snow and ice. It doesn't. Whether you're driving
a Toyota Camry or a Humvee, go too fast for the corner in snow or ice
and you'll be off the road. The first snow storm of the season is
always a gotcha for many around here for two reasons: 1. The first
several storms, as well as the last several, are usually really greasy
stuff, far more slippery than the snow we get in mid winter. 2.
People do not slow down for the now marginal conditions, they continue
on as if it were summer and pay the price. Ok, there's a third
reason: not changing from the run down summer tires to new winters.

Most SUV's are luxury family vehicals located in suburbia and are not
driven on the dirt roads you mention.

Corky Scott

Corky Scott wrote:


But they're still classified as light trucks. I have not seen a
single ad or commercial for a two wheel drive SUV.

Not necessarily, my Chevy Avalanche (which is bigger than most
SUV's on the market) seems to be licensed as a station wagon.
Go figure.

Corky Scott wrote:

But they're still classified as light trucks. I have not seen a
single ad or commercial for a two wheel drive SUV.

Perhaps so, but when you go to the dealer to buy one, you will find that 4WD is an
expensive option on many of them. Any like many other things, some manufacturers are
packaging it with other options, which makes it even more unlikely that it will be
purchased.

You don't have to go to a dealer to find this out, though. Most manufacturers have a
"build your own" tool on their web site.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:14:42 GMT, "Allen"
wrote:

This is simply wrong! If you do a check the majority of "SUV" type
vehicles
are not four wheel drive, although SOME of them are available as four
wheel
drive.

Allen.

But they're still classified as light trucks. I have not seen a
single ad or commercial for a two wheel drive SUV.

Corky Scott

4 WD SUV's are available in the Texas/Oklahoma area by special order,
otherwise SUV's at Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet, & GMC dealers are 2 WD.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:51:29 -0500, Chris W wrote:

Do you seriously think that snow and ice are the only reason to have
4WD? You need to get out of the city more.

Guffaw, I live in rural Vermont in the woods off a mile long uphill
dirt road. My wife and I have had no choice but to use 4WD vehicals
if we really want to get home every day. And we still find some days
when even that doesn't work, days when it's raining on top of slush,
on top of ice. Thankfully, those conditions don't occur often.

On steep mountain roads a
little rain can make 4WD helpful. Drive down a dirt road after some bad
rain often enough and you will wish eventually wish you had 4WD

Can't tell you how many 4WD vehicals go off the road up here in
northern NE because the owners assumed that that feature would keep
them on the road in snow and ice. It doesn't. Whether you're driving
a Toyota Camry or a Humvee, go too fast for the corner in snow or ice
and you'll be off the road. The first snow storm of the season is
always a gotcha for many around here for two reasons: 1. The first
several storms, as well as the last several, are usually really greasy
stuff, far more slippery than the snow we get in mid winter. 2.
People do not slow down for the now marginal conditions, they continue
on as if it were summer and pay the price. Ok, there's a third
reason: not changing from the run down summer tires to new winters.

Most SUV's are luxury family vehicals located in suburbia and are not
driven on the dirt roads you mention.

Corky Scott

It is obvious you have never been to the SE, Mid West, Central, or SW parts
of the country.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:06:38 GMT, "Ralph Nesbitt"
wrote:

It is obvious you have never been to the SE, Mid West, Central, or SW parts
of the country.
Ralph Nesbitt

I'm not sure what your point is, but you're mistaken.

Spent four years finishing school in Atlanta. They do get the
occasional snow storm down there and it completely devastates the
drivers. I watched a guy get stuck in four inches of snow in the
middle of a flat road. He thought that if some throttle was good,
nearly full throttle was MUCH better to get him moving. He literally
dug himself into the asphalt about three inches down. I still
remember watching him belatedly finally returning to idle and I
watched the tires lazily spin around in the curf they'd dug while the
driver watched the steam pouring out from them. When I was down there
in the late 60's and early 70's and it snowed, it literally shut the
city down. No one (well, very few) knew how to drive in it.

Corky Scott

"Corky Scott" wrote

Spent four years finishing school in Atlanta. They do get the
occasional snow storm down there and it completely devastates the
drivers. I watched a guy get stuck in four inches of snow in the
middle of a flat road. He thought that if some throttle was good,
nearly full throttle was MUCH better to get him moving.

Snip

No one (well, very few) knew how to drive in it.

Corky Scott

In defense of Southerners, it is undeniable that the snow down here is
different.

Snowfall, many times, starts with rain changing to freezing rain, to snow.
I doesn't mater what you do, you can't drive on that stuff. I grew up in
Northern Ohio and know how to drive in the white stuff, and I almost got
stuck on a almost flat road, after I had to stop for someone who could not
get going. I did manage to get going, but only after several minutes of
trying.
--
Jim in NC


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Sylvia Else wrote in
u:



John Mazor wrote:

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
u...

Pooh Bear wrote:


John Mazor wrote:


"OtisWinslow" wrote in message
om...


I thought the Captain was in charge of making sure the
aircraft was operated safely. Why the hell didn't he intervene
and stop the excessive movement? He just sat there
and watched knowing that it was the wrong action to
take? Sure points the finger at Airbus and AA's training program.

Perhaps, but it also reflects the prevailing but erroneous
impression

among

airline pilots that you can't break the airplane with control
inputs

below

maneuvering speed. This was not limited to Airbus products.

Which then begs the question why were airline pilots erroneously
under

that

impression ?

It was a bizarre notion anyway. Fly your airliner below maneuvering
speed. Apply full right aileron, and wait.

I guarantee you'll have a broken plane.


Cute - ditto for full forward yoke 100' AGL - but irrelevant.

Forget the liability dogfight, the most troublesome aspect of this
accident is how long-standing engineers' knowledge that a rudder
wig-wag could break the tail on an airplane never got disseminated
down to the people who actually fly the damn things.


It's probably not just a problem in aviation. There are things that
seem so blindingly obvious to engineers that it's difficult for them
to conceive the notion that a non-engineer might not recognise the
truth.

So, of all the things that the engineers consider obvious, how are
they to enumerate those that won't be obvious to non-engineers?

Babbage was reputedly asked whether his calculating engine would give
the correct answers even if given the wrong input. He's quoted as
expressing bemusement at the kind of thinking that could lead to such
a question.

Forums like this one may help -

Good christ, you really are a fjuking half wit


Bertie

"AbsolutelyCertain" wrote in
:


"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message
...
AbsolutelyCertain wrote:

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
u...


Those who sit at the pointy end of the
aircraft may like to ponder where their self interest lies before
indulging themselves in this respect.


Oh my.

Pretty entertaining, isn't she?

In the same way that a roach, just sprayed with Raid and wriggling on the
floor, is entertaining .........

Yeah, but they die far too quickly.


Bertie