Leaving the community

I don't know which America you're talking about, but it's not the one I
live in. People die every day from poverty. People who, had they stolen,
would have survived. People whose ONLY REMAINING OPTION was to steal.

You're either lying, or just plain ignorant of what is available in America.

I defy you to produce even ONE person in this country that fits your
description.

Find me ONE person who had no government program to avail themselves of, no
homeless shelter to live in, no church to feed them, and no Medicaid-paid
drug, alcohol, or mental health services to assuage their ills.

Find me ONE, and you've got a free night in the Pan Am Clipper suite.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Nobody said anything about the nobility of Native Americans. But there
simply can be no debate that they were subjected to systematic genocide
by people who greedily wanted the land they lived on. People whose
descendants now comprise the majority of the people living in the US.
And no matter the details of ownership - it destroyed their life style

And they truly need to get over it.

Being driven to emigrate to America in 1852 utterly destroyed my family's
agrarian lifestyle. In fact, my entire family spent several generations in
economic and social flux because of being driven from their ancestral lands.

Should I be seeking reparations from Germany?

Your logic is flawed, and cannot survive scrutiny in the real world.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

So what is the purpose of this post, to demonize all Indians, including
Sioux and Pawnee, 200 years after the fact of stealing their lands?

No one is trying to demonize Indians. (How typical of the PC police to
interpret a counterpoint as an attack.)

The point (for those who refuse to see it) is that the American Indians lost
the wars, as so many have before (and since), and it's time for them to
either become integrated in American society, or shut the hell up.

Cuz no amount of whining is going to change their fate.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Your logic is flawed, and cannot survive scrutiny in the real world.


How convenient for you!

Again, all I'd expect is some sense humility in the face of, what?,
about four millions "Indians" killed in the process of building the
"land of the free". Here in Germany, most decent people try to show
that humility, in the face of 6 million Jews having been killed by our
ancestors. But, to each his own...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay,

it's time for them to
either become integrated in American society, or shut the hell up.


"Them" are gone. "Them" are dead. That's the point.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:33:42 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

I don't believe anyone ever claimed that there was NO causal relationship
between crime and poverty.

What I implied, however, is that we shouldn't care if there is.

In America, theft is a moral problem, not an economic one. No one needs to
steal to survive here. Therefore, no one "needs" to steal.

And, thus, to restate the obvious, the people that *do* steal here are truly
scum.

From what I've picked up in reading over the years, theft is a baby
that has many fathers. Poverty is certainly one causal factor. A
lack of a strongly bonded nuclear family is another. The existance of
gangs is one more. Drugs may be the biggest causal factor of all:
once the user is hooked, if their income cannot support the habit,
theft is the only alternative. But the use of drugs may be related to
the lack of a nuclear family and the existance of extreme poverty.

"Fixing" the problem(s) is not easy. Here is a really radical idea:
Make narcotic drugs legal and free, or at least very inexpensive.
Making drugs legal and free would go a LONG way towards reducing
theft, if that is considered to be the **BIG** problem.

Corky (notice I have not touched on the morality issue) Scott

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:lC2nd.422928$D%.59195@attbi_s51...
You're either lying, or just plain ignorant of what is available in
America.

I defy you to produce even ONE person in this country that fits your
description.

I'm a little confused by your reply. What is it about all of the poor
people (many of them homeless) who die every year because they didn't have
the necessary resources to survive that you just don't get?

Do various social welfare programs exist to try to minimize the problem?
Sure. But are those programs sufficient to protect every single poor
person? Not even close. After all of the publicly available resources are
used up, there still remain a large number of people for whom the only
recourse is steal or die.

Find me ONE person who had no government program to avail themselves of,
no homeless shelter to live in, no church to feed them, and no
Medicaid-paid drug, alcohol, or mental health services to assuage their
ills.

They are everywhere. Even in your little college town, and especially in
every major city across the country. They die every day as a result of
their poverty and unwillingness to steal.

Find me ONE, and you've got a free night in the Pan Am Clipper suite.

Please. If you are too set in your determined ignorance to simply look
around you, or to look up the mortality statistics yourself and think I
ought to do your homework for you, you ought to at least offer something
that is of value to me.

Pete

Again, all I'd expect is some sense humility in the face of, what?,
about four millions "Indians" killed in the process of building the
"land of the free". Here in Germany, most decent people try to show
that humility, in the face of 6 million Jews having been killed by our
ancestors. But, to each his own...

The differences between the two events are so vast, it's hard to imagine
anyone not grasping them.

Your statement only proves that Germans really *haven't* learned their
lessons yet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Them" are gone. "Them" are dead. That's the point.

That would come as quite a shock to the 2.8 million Americans who identified
themselves as "Native American" in the most recent census.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Find me ONE, and you've got a free night in the Pan Am Clipper suite.

Please. If you are too set in your determined ignorance to simply look
around you, or to look up the mortality statistics yourself and think I
ought to do your homework for you, you ought to at least offer something
that is of value to me.

As I suspected.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"