Bush Sr's Gulfstream crash...

aluckyguess wrote:

Something about this crash sounds fishy. I am sure these were really good
pilots. How do you make a mistake like this especialy when the tower tells
you youre to low, and then you never reply back.


Happened last month right here. Freight dog in a Beech 99. We tell him
he's 1100 feet low just outside the outer marker. He says he's
correcting. On a two mile and half mile final he's at his decision
height of 200 feet. He does a touch and go off a shed at the gun club,
exploding the shed's roof into a million pieces, leaving landing gear
parts in the shed but he stays airborne. Red lights appear in the
cockpit. He goes missed and then flies almost 200 miles away where he
lands and the gear collapses as he turns off the runway. Since I'm a
member of said gun club I went and took pictures of distressed shed.

Big John wrote:



4. If on an ILS, then altimeter setting would not be of prime
importance. You ride the beam down until you see the R/W (or minimum
altitude and go around) and land. The beam (needles) is/are the
governing factor on az and el.

But if the altimeter is not set correctly you don't know where the DH
really is.


ILS is sited to have a touch down point
of say 2000 down R/W. Forget the exact figures.

1000.

Newps wrote in news:u6SdnQxazM3L8TjcRVn-
:



Big John wrote:



4. If on an ILS, then altimeter setting would not be of prime
importance. You ride the beam down until you see the R/W (or minimum
altitude and go around) and land. The beam (needles) is/are the
governing factor on az and el.

But if the altimeter is not set correctly you don't know where the DH
really is.



Incorrect altimeter setting will not make you land short of the runway. It
will take you closer to the touchdown point. In addition, the altitude
shown at the final approach fix can be used to verify the altimeter
setting.

I wonder if the GS was screwed up???


Dave S wrote:

So far, nobody has made mention of this incident in the newsgroups I
frequent so thought I would give it mention. I'm sure its gotten
national coverage. At approx 6:23 AM CST a Gulstream 1159a (formerly a
G3 I think) impacted the ground about 6-7 miles SW of Hobby airport as
it was on approach for runway 4. Conditions throughout the area were IFR
to low IFR with ground fog and ceilings that ranged in the 2-400 ft
range (as estimated by me.. I havent queried the official sources..)
local media reported Hobby as 1/8th of a mile vis.

The aircraft's debis path according to the media was south to north, and
began where the aircraft's wing struck a tall highway lighting pole (the
250-300 ft "area lighting" variety), shearing off the wing, resulting in
a fireball, and the destruction of the aircraft in a cow pasture
alongside the highway (The Sam Houston Tollway/Beltway 8). This was
about 2 miles from where my building partner in the Velocity lives, and
had I been going to a particular hospital to work, I would have likely
been an eyewitness (thats about the time I pass through that area).
Build partner's fiancee reported the whole area reeked of jet fuel.

The aircraft was enroute from Dallas Love to Hobby to pick up Former
Prez Bush for an international trip that he subsequently cancelled. 3
confirmed fatals, presumed to be PIC, SIC and flight attendant on the
Fractional Jet owned by an Oklahoma based company.

When all this was unfolding on the news, one of the doc's at work who
keeps a C-414 at Hobby went and got his plates, and for the charts, it
states that if they were on the path (which they werent quite on, based
on my knowledge of the lay of the land).. the FAF would be approx 1500
ft MSL and the next furthest out fix at 8.x miles would have been 1800
miles. They didnt report any trouble, and in fact just "dropped off the
air" according to media reports. I will not try and speculate, but I
must say it's frustrating that a professional crew, in a professionally
maintained plane in an area with saturated radar coverage practically to
the ground, on an IFR flight plan, presumably on a coupled approach or
intercept (ok.. I dont know that.. im guessing), presumably with GPWS
(dont the big bizjets have to have em or where they exempt?) managed to
pull off CFIT in a coastal plain (no mountains)..

At least they didnt take out anyone on the ground... the media down here
was already having a field day about those "small planes like gulfstreams"

some info sources at
www.chron.com
www.abc13.com
www.click2houston.com

Dave

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Big John wrote:



4. If on an ILS, then altimeter setting would not be of prime
importance. You ride the beam down until you see the R/W (or minimum
altitude and go around) and land. The beam (needles) is/are the
governing factor on az and el.

But if the altimeter is not set correctly you don't know where the DH
really is.

Are you really watching the altimeter 7 miles out when locked on the G/S?
Pinky swear? There's some whacked lesson to be learned here.

moo

The GIII has a radio altimeter and GPWS. Either they had problems
being that far below the ILS or they were scud running and ignoring
everything the aircraft was telling them. Guess the NTSB will let us
know which.


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Don Hammer wrote:

The GIII has a radio altimeter and GPWS. Either they had problems
being that far below the ILS or they were scud running and ignoring
everything the aircraft was telling them. Guess the NTSB will let us
know which.

Why would anyone scud run under a working ILS? Is there any advantage to
that under any circumstance?

- Andrew

"Newps" wrote in message ...


aluckyguess wrote:

Something about this crash sounds fishy. I am sure these were really good pilots. How do you make a mistake
like this especialy when the tower tells you youre to low, and then you never reply back.

Happened last month right here. Freight dog in a Beech 99. We tell him he's 1100 feet low just outside the
outer marker. He says he's correcting. On a two mile and half mile final he's at his decision height of 200
feet. He does a touch and go off a shed at the gun club, exploding the shed's roof into a million pieces,
leaving landing gear parts in the shed but he stays airborne. Red lights appear in the cockpit. He goes
missed and then flies almost 200 miles away where he lands and the gear collapses as he turns off the runway.
Since I'm a member of said gun club I went and took pictures of distressed shed.

Well, let's see 'em!

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:45:29 -0500, Andrew Gideon
wrotD:

Why would anyone scud run under a working ILS? Is there any advantage to
that under any circumstance?

- Andrew

There is no advantage, but more than a few have dipped under the
glideslope to take a peek for some stupid reason. Back in my FE days,
I once nailed a captain in the back of the head with a clipboard after
he ignored the FO's two dots low callout. Like I said before, the
NTSB will probably shed some light on what happened here.


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