U.K. near-midairs

: I inquired about their use in gliders (practically
: no weight and could go in fuselage behind wing) and
: someone told me they would not give a strong enough
: signal for aircraft use owing to the speeds involved.

I have heard that a military ATC who visited one site where I fly said
that it would make a considerable improvement to the radar return from
a glider. It's on my list of things to do.

Ian

You could fly a tin AC!!! ;-)

Peter
Pilatus B4

In article 41a81fb1$1@darkstar,
(Mark James Boyd) wrote:

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

In the US, I'm not aware of any ACTUAL midair collisions between a
glider and non-glider that are more than 4 miles from an airport.

About 15 years ago near Ephrata, Washington, there was a glider/airplane
collision about 10 miles from the airport. Everyone was killed. I don't
remember the details, or even if they were determined with any confidence.

Can't find this one in fatals/glider/state of washington on NTSB. Hmmm...
Looked for 1980 to 1999...


I seem to recall one near Truckee 5-10 years ago, but don't remember how
far it was from the airport.

3/31/1998, Grob 102 vs. Aero Commander 690, vicinity of the airport,
all uninjured

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd


I believe the accident Eric is referring to occurred in 1978 between a
Piper PA-32R (Lance or Saratoga, I forget which) and my partner flying
our LS1-f. 5 people were killed, no surviviors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=39335&key=0

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=39336&key=0

Amazing how long ago this accident happened.

Carl J. Niedermeyer
Washington State
USA

Imagine this scenario.
A gliding competition in southern England with 100+ gliders all with
transponders, Plus non competition gliders flying with transponders, Plus light
aircraft flying VFR, Plus commercial, Plus military all with transponders
bleeping away.

The poor chap on the Radar would have a totally confused picture. The
authorities would then want to make sense of it because they look so close
together on the screen, all these people flying VFR outside controlled
airspace.

Before we know where we are there will be NO uncontrolled airspace and since
gliders cannot maintain nice neat constant heights and headings they would be
banned.
Paranoid me? Maybe

After 20,000+ hours of civilian and military flying, given the number
of times that I have not seen an aircraft until he is _no longer_ a
threat, I have decided that there are probably few, if any, days when
we see all of the traffic in our area throughout the flight.

If we all knew how much traffic we miss, we'd work a lot harder to see
and avoid, and to be seen and avoided.


Jack

Ian Cant wrote:
Sometimes that is so; what if you install one because
you want to operate in Class A or B airspace [as opposed
to being more visible in uncontrolled airspace]?

A very rare case indeed. I know of few glider pilots who would operate
in such airspace. I think the stats that 80% of glider pilots twirl
around their home field isn't because of lack of transponders or radios...

On the other hand, here in the states, SSA has proposed to the FAA
allowing glider pilots to legally turn transponders on and off in flight,
to conserve battery power.

I think the FAA is unlikely to approve this. If I'm faced with this
situation, I will notice it is inoperative, turn it off, and place the
appropriate sticker on it. Later in the flight, when I have the time to
test it further, I'll turn it on and notice it works, and I will remove
the sticker.

The other perhaps much more important activity is to learn enough about
the IFR approach procedures near high volume airports where you are
about to fly. The US VFR charts have magenta shaded markings which often
extend from busier airports indicating an IFR approach. Also, for $4-$5
one can purchase the IFR approach plates for a region of the US. Any
instrument pilot can show enough about these to add some perspective.

Of course, this is really mostly to avoid high volume approaches to
commuter airports, but I've used it to assure I avoid commuter traffic
near several gliderports.

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Carl J. Niedermeyer wrote:

I believe the accident Eric is referring to occurred in 1978 between a
Piper PA-32R (Lance or Saratoga, I forget which) and my partner flying
our LS1-f. 5 people were killed, no surviviors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=39335&key=0

Amazing how long ago this accident happened.

Hmmm...the accident reports don't indicate if this was very near a
gliderport or near Moses Lake (the Piper's departure point).

I'd be interested in more details, if they are available. I suppose
the altitude of the collision is unknown...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Jack wrote:
After 20,000+ hours of civilian and military flying, given the number
of times that I have not seen an aircraft until he is _no longer_ a
threat, I have decided that there are probably few, if any, days when
we see all of the traffic in our area throughout the flight.

If we all knew how much traffic we miss, we'd work a lot harder to see
and avoid, and to be seen and avoided.

Given how much traffic I see within 4 miles of an airport vs. how much I see
during random flight paths away from airports, combined with the midair
accident statistics and my own close calls, I have some conclusions.

I'm very attentive (looking outside) at "D" towered airports.
I fly enroute below 3000 AGL at "off" altitudes (2700, 2340, etc),
except when overflying airports.
I avoid overflying navaids (VORs) and airports, often diverting 5+
miles away/around them.
If I notice an airplane, I immediately assume there are more nearby.
I don't fly in glider gaggles or contests as I don't have the avoidance
skills necessary to feel comfortable.
I only fly near the same thermal/ridge with other gliders if it is exactly
one other glider, or I have two people on board (one as lookout).

Those very experienced in gaggles have different standards, but this
has worked for me so far.




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
(snip)

George Thelen has one, F-4 at an estimated three foot separation. IIRC,
that's what really got him into writing about safety for Soaring.

Frank Whiteley

George is a friend of mine, and I know that story well, and it is believable
and scary. That said, I think that military fighter pilots are not immune
from buzzing gliders:

"Hey Maverick, got the glider at 12:00? Lets wake him up."

Been there, done that (twice, on the receiving end), have the stained
shorts...

Now when one goes by the first thing I think of is "Wingman!"
-Bob

In article 41ab5a00$1@darkstar,
(Mark James Boyd) wrote:

Carl J. Niedermeyer wrote:

I believe the accident Eric is referring to occurred in 1978 between a
Piper PA-32R (Lance or Saratoga, I forget which) and my partner flying
our LS1-f. 5 people were killed, no surviviors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=39335&key=0

Amazing how long ago this accident happened.

Hmmm...the accident reports don't indicate if this was very near a
gliderport or near Moses Lake (the Piper's departure point).

I'd be interested in more details, if they are available. I suppose
the altitude of the collision is unknown...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

The accident occurred approximately 7 or 8 nm miles West of Ephrata,
where we fly from. The altimeter in the LS1-f was broken with the hands
indicating about 6700 feet MSL (IIRC), about 5000 feet AGL. There were
no clouds that day and visibilty was 150 miles. I have the complete
report somewhere in my files.

Carl J. Niedermeyer
Washington State
USA

Mark James Boyd wrote:

Carl J. Niedermeyer wrote:

I believe the accident Eric is referring to occurred in 1978 between a
Piper PA-32R (Lance or Saratoga, I forget which) and my partner flying
our LS1-f. 5 people were killed, no surviviors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=39335&key=0

Amazing how long ago this accident happened.


Hmmm...the accident reports don't indicate if this was very near a
gliderport or near Moses Lake (the Piper's departure point).

I'd be interested in more details, if they are available. I suppose
the altitude of the collision is unknown...

Carl N. can tell you more accurately, but I recall it was about 10 miles
NW of Ephrata airport, where the glider launched from, and probably in
the 5000-7000 msl range.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA