Proposed 2005 Rules On SRA Site

Nope!

Brian,

You are my hero for posting this...but I must ask, why
do you have a radio at all?

Aha! I bet it came with the glider, right?

I too am a pilot on a budget. Apparently there are just
the two of us on this newsgroup...

In article .com,
Brian wrote:
Perhaps you don't bat an eye for $1K peice of Glider Equipment.

I however won't even walk in to Nordstrom. I have yet to spend more
$400 for a peice of glider equipment other than the inital cost of the
glider. 7 Years ago I flew my 1st contest in a Glider I paid $6500 for
with a $200 used Parachute and a $35 35mm Camera.

Today I am flying a $11,000 glider with 15 year old Flight Computer,
$150 GPS and a $400 flight Recorder. My $800 parachute came with the
glider, otherwise I would still be using the $200 one.

I really don't have an issue putting a $300 ELT into my glider ,I do
think it is a worthwhile peice of equipment. I have been looking at
them for some time even before the proposed rule, I would also like a
better Radio, and a Transponder and a 406 ELT. So what is my priority.
as of 2006 it is the ELT per the rules. Probably the $300 dollar one. I
guess you can put up with my scratchy radio calls for another year and
I can continue to see and avoid 737's while they never see me.


Brian



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Mark J. Boyd

Well, at some point I fully expect mode S transponders
required in every aircraft. Maybe 5-10 years from now.

So the FAA will know your exact location by tail number at all times.
Sure will save on Volkloggers and on crew radios, eh? Just
link into the scope, and POOF! Real time data...



In article ,
Tim Mara wrote:
Talk about cost!!!!!!!
Transponders in gliders are expensive.......!
Initial cost to install a transponder is +/- $2000, semi-annual cost, +
additional batteries + upkeep = more $
My biggest fear is that transponders could eventually be required for
everything that fly's...that means every homebuilt, every 126, 222, k6 or k8
and so on and every club glider will have this additional expense.... now
you won't only have problems with a newbie trying to get into a contest, but
with every potential glider owner, every club member all having to pay more
or.......have less
As for " Pretty much each of us has a story of being closer to power traffic
than we would have liked to be". "IF you have stories about close
encounters then it's likely because you're flying in heavily congested
airspace.....Don't fly there!......you are absolutely correct "If there is a
midair and lives lost you can bet that there will be immediate steps made to
regulate our flying." and that will be the end of soaring as we know it!
I do sell transponders.....but I try also to explain as best I can what
their limitations are to buyers as well......these are not a simply, flip it
on when YOU want it and go on flying down the approach corridor.....if
you're not talking with ATC in these highly congested areas you are still
putting yourself and others at risk.........not every other plane in this
area will be talking with ATC or have a TCAS system on board ...... if you
want simple and inexpensive traffic avoidance look beyond simply squawking
in the blind but look also at the TPAS systems....far better than having the
Fed's tell us we all need to have transponders installed to fly "anywhere"
tim
www.wingsandwheels.com


"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message
news:1GwGd.2637$0B.729@fed1read02...
For those of you that wish to have some statistics pertaining to ELT
reliability go to this page:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html

As with most arguements on this group there has been hyperbole on the part
of both sides. While I would agree that another $2000 instrument will
notPretty much each of us has a story
of being closer to power traffic than we would have liked to be. If there
is a midair and lives lost you can bet that there will be immediate steps
made to regulate our flying.
keep me from entering a contest I do feel that it could keep a newcomer
from
entering their first contest. There have been multiple threads on this
group re how the average age of sailplane pilots is steadily growing and
wishing to know how we might interest new folks in joining our sport.
Making the cost of entering a contest higher does not help that goal. We
should at least be honest with ourselves about that.

In my opinion transponders go much farther in at least potentially
furthering the greater good than an ELT. Admittedly it has a different
function than an
ELT and would also be cost prohibitive but does have the potential for
locating a downed aircraft based upon the last known position.

Casey Lenox
Phoenix










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Mark J. Boyd

I have a portable personal ELT. I have taken it with me on
thousands of flights, some in gliders. When I flew a glider, I
attached it across my chest with the parachute. I've activated it four
times, when coming in for landing at unobserved (outlanding) strips.
I shut it off in each case after landing, except once when I was able to
avoid landout and instead climbed 10,000 feet. I then shut it off, and
called FSS and told them I was the false alarm.

I don't know why pilots assume they have to crash to activate the
ELT. I agree with Carl Herold that every outlanding is an
emergency landing, and I treat it as such.

I have never flown a glider with an installed ELT. I have found
my particular use of a personal ELT suits me and my needs better.
And my ELT is on ME, not the glider. I don't care if anyone finds
the glider...

In article IZ0Hd.4920$0B.1542@fed1read02,
Kilo Charlie NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote:
Chris, Chris, Chris......I love it when you stoop to arguing with statistics
by not only dissing the ones presented but not offering any of your own to
support another viewpoint! The old "I just know those aren't correct" idea.
Hey I'm here to learn so show me the money and I'll be glad to see it
another way. Honestly I thought that those nasty old AOPA stats with all of
their bias supported the point that Tim (and you) were making.

And Tim.....the reason that I bought and installed a transponder (which with
an encoder was less than $2000 BTW) was that when I was flying back from the
Grand Canyon towards Phoenix on those very long flat glides, I could not
even see the gliders in front of me but could see the occasional 737 heading
in to PHX. Now I'm not thinkin' that you fly in a place more remote than
northern Arizona but I suppose I may have missed that spot while I was
flying on the east coast. With that 37 and I heading the same direction I
figured that I would get a loud noise followed by crunching as the first
sign I may be too close.

As you point out and as I said already, transponders are a lot of money but
you chose to overlook that part about the newer ELT's (and soon to be only
effective models) currently being the same price. Maybe they'll come down
in price, maybe so will transponders, maybe neither will.

I'll make the point again.....ANY $2000 required piece of equipment for
contest entry will be prohibitive to some pilots, esp newer ones. Point
number 2 is that if we are forced to choose which is a more effective
instrument in preventing human loss of life and therefore psychological
trauma to the greater number of people I say that the stats would support
the transponder.

I used OC logic with that last statement since I have nothing to support
it!!! But darn it I know I'm right!

KC





--

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Mark J. Boyd

In article hViHd.5695$0B.2411@fed1read02, Kilo Charlie wrote:

BTW I assume that these are useful anywhere in the world. Are any other
countries requiring them for contests?


ELTs are required in gliders in NZ. Exemptions are only for local flying,
my memory says within 10km of the field.

We are allowed to carry portable units though.

--
Philip Plane _____
|
---------------( )---------------
Glider pilots have no visible means of support

In article ,
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

1) The installed ELT has more power and a better antenna.

Unless the coax is severed or the fragile battery box is broken.

2) The installed ELT has a button on the panel to turn it on
quickly before landing. I'll bet hitting a button mounted
at a fixed location can be done faster than finding a button
on a portable.

Tightly belted in, I couldn't reach anything on the panel in the
PW-5. Arms were too short, even with lots of cushions. The
button on the EPIRB was easy to find and switch on.

3) The installed ELT has the "failsafe" of crash activation.

Not reliable, and the crash may destroy it. Not likely
for the EPIRB. It's been tested to 20Gs and drop tested
on cement at it's terminal velocity.

4) The installed ELT can be carried portably after landing
and will transmit voice on 121.5.

Yep. So does my handheld radio and my cell phone.
And I don't even have to search for and install a whip antenna
after disconnecting the coax behind my head. If I'm bleeding
out of my femur and conscious, I'm probably going to
go with the cell phone in my jacket or the handheld radio.
Probably easier to reach.

But then again, I've never even flown a sailplane with an installed
ELT. So this is speculation on my part.

Downside: I would have paid over $8,000 to install even the
cheapest ELT in each of the 20 sailplanes I've flown in the past
2 years. If I owned my own sailplane, that would be different.
If the contest organizers want to restrict entrants to
those who own their own sailplanes, then that is another matter.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

MOST of the mounted ELT's will still function, though at a reduced TX range
without the antenna should it be severed in a crash...

Personal ELT's and EPIRB units require you to activate them manually....if
you're still, after you crash.... able to!
tim


"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41eed942$1@darkstar...
In article ,
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

1) The installed ELT has more power and a better antenna.

Unless the coax is severed or the fragile battery box is broken.

2) The installed ELT has a button on the panel to turn it on
quickly before landing. I'll bet hitting a button mounted
at a fixed location can be done faster than finding a button
on a portable.

Tim Mara wrote:

Personal ELT's and EPIRB units require you to activate them manually....if
you're still, after you crash.... able to!

I've activated my ELT not after, but BEFORE any potential
unwitnessed landing. At pattern altitude for an off-field
landing, I've always considered this an emergency. So I pop it
on. If I land safely and happily, I shut it off.

But Tim, your point is good as it relates to ridge soaring or
midairs. In both of those cases, it seems possible to
be knocked unconscious and potentially be at a crash site, bleeding out,
and have an impact activated ELT be useful.

I don't know the story of Peter Masak, however, and don't know if this
was his case...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:
Tim Mara wrote:

Personal ELT's and EPIRB units require you to activate them manually....if
you're still, after you crash.... able to!


I've activated my ELT not after, but BEFORE any potential
unwitnessed landing. At pattern altitude for an off-field
landing, I've always considered this an emergency. So I pop it
on. If I land safely and happily, I shut it off.

You mentioned this before, and it made me wonder.

When I bought mine there were lots of cautions in the instructions
about _not_ activating it unless it was really an emergency.

I have to admit I don't know exactly what the consequences of
activating it will be in the short term. I thought that the result
would be pretty immediate alarm bells souding in cockpits of
overhead jets listening in 121.5.

If I knew that as I approached an outlanding and activated my ELT
I'd be sending every overhead jet crew into an emergency response mode,
I would not like to do that at all. One could almost say "downright
irresponsible". Every weekend day there are people making outlandings
all over the country!

Every XC flight I make I am prepared to and expect to outland. That
is part of what XC flying is about (in a country where you don't plan
to XC from airport to airport, at least)

It would not be fair to carry the expectation that therefore I am prepared to
disturb flight crews every weekend just in case I botch an outlanding...

.... so how do you reconcile this in your mind?

Martin.

Well, I believe Carl Herold that an outlanding is an emergency.

And keep in mind I only activate the EPIRB for unobserved
outlandings (nobody around, no farmers, no roads
with people, etc.)

And it's on for at most maybe a few minutes.

The one time I had it on for more than a few minutes, I was a bit busy.
When I called FSS, they said "OK, we got a confirmation
on an ELT just a few minutes ago. Thanks."

So I don't think this is a huge problem. Having an
installed one in a trailer beeping away for hours, now that
is a different matter...

I guess I've also made maybe a dozen precautionary
ATC calls and landings in power planes in several thousands
of flights. The ATC guys have never seemed out of sorts about
it, and they'd rather have a heads up ahead of time and have
it turn out ok, instead of the opposite.

I personally don't think pilots declare emergencies enough.
A few days ago, a malibu pilot here at Palo Alto had
high oil temp and didn't declare, and tried to land here.
Too high, too fast, rolled the thing off the end, destroyed
it and injured herself. Could have just declared an emergency and landed
at Oakland instead (long, wide runway, lots of fire trucks).

I'm not saying push the button on the ELT for every landing.
I'm saying if there is nodoby watching you land, and
you aren't 100% sure of a safe outcome, flip it on at
1000ft, and afterwards flip it off.

A field with grass, potential drainage pipes, wires, and
a narrow road with a tree halfway down it for me constitutes
an exciting landout. If you are more skilled, your results may vary...

In article ,
Martin Gregory wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:
Tim Mara wrote:

Personal ELT's and EPIRB units require you to activate them manually....if
you're still, after you crash.... able to!


I've activated my ELT not after, but BEFORE any potential
unwitnessed landing. At pattern altitude for an off-field
landing, I've always considered this an emergency. So I pop it
on. If I land safely and happily, I shut it off.

You mentioned this before, and it made me wonder.

When I bought mine there were lots of cautions in the instructions
about _not_ activating it unless it was really an emergency.

I have to admit I don't know exactly what the consequences of
activating it will be in the short term. I thought that the result
would be pretty immediate alarm bells souding in cockpits of
overhead jets listening in 121.5.

If I knew that as I approached an outlanding and activated my ELT
I'd be sending every overhead jet crew into an emergency response mode,
I would not like to do that at all. One could almost say "downright
irresponsible". Every weekend day there are people making outlandings
all over the country!

Every XC flight I make I am prepared to and expect to outland. That
is part of what XC flying is about (in a country where you don't plan
to XC from airport to airport, at least)

It would not be fair to carry the expectation that therefore I am prepared to
disturb flight crews every weekend just in case I botch an outlanding...

... so how do you reconcile this in your mind?

Martin.

--

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Mark J. Boyd