C-172 down at HPN - 2 fatalities

George Patterson wrote:

Andrew Gideon wrote:

It's possible that there was no contact with the tower if the pilot
hadn't been handed off yet (or if he never made contact with the tower
after the hand-off).

He's 1/4 mile from the runway and hasn't been handed off yet?

Or he never completed the hand-off. TRACON might have switched him at 5
miles, but the aircraft never contacted the tower. I don't know.

Frankly, there's a lot about this that confuses me. No warnings about being
too low from ATC? I once has a TRACON controller contact me almost
breathlessly about my altitude (which was, fortunately, a transponder
problem). And this was in VMC.

Also, although I'm not sure how that's come out, people here are now
speaking of the student as a primary student. That makes the flight a lot
more odd.

But perhaps he wanted to see what IMC was like, for some reason, or...I just
don't know.

This does trigger a memory, though. During my primary training, my CFI
wanted to go up into a snowstorm. Not knowing any better, I questioned it
but didn't refuse. We were at the hold line just about to get onto the
runway when the tower talked some sense into the CFI (and the controllers
tone helped me push the matter).

What if that hadn't occurred? I don't recall the CFI carrying any extra
(ie. IFR) charts. And those weren't planes I'd take into IMC myself (from
my current perspective) anyway.

Scary.

- Andrew

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:35:27 GMT, "H.P." wrote:

They're stupid AND lazy. I was in P.R. for about 10 years and reporters
just
ate out of my hand. I basically did the work for them on the facts and my
clients paid for it. My biggest successes were stories that I wrote but
were
printed whole cloth by the paper. I once was duped by a client. I sent
out
press releases, press kits and got the nets, locals, cable and radio to
cover an event based upon a wrong premise. I got ink, video and radio for
my
client like there was no tomorrow. Not one of them fact-checked.


Let's see if I understand this...

YOU were duped, and the newspaper reporters were the ones at fault for
not fact-checking?

No he was given false info by his client who paid him to get it out in the
press. He had no responsibility to prove everything that he gave the press
was true. If PR people had to do that they would all be out of business in a
week. Their job is to spin information to put their client in the best
light.

On the other hand the press has a responsibility to check facts. ESPECIALLY
when it comes from a PR firm.

wrote in message

No he was given false info by his client who paid him to get it out in the
press. He had no responsibility to prove everything that he gave the press
was true. If PR people had to do that they would all be out of business in
a
week. Their job is to spin information to put their client in the best
light.

On the other hand the press has a responsibility to check facts.
ESPECIALLY
when it comes from a PR firm.



In other words, I DO understand this.

So..., If a client gives a PR person something to spin, the PR hack
has NO responsibility. That's what your understanding is? It doesn't matter
whether the material is good or total BS?
I predict some back-pedalling coming here. Like, "Oh well, if I KNOW
it's BS, I won't take the job." Well, how about when you have some suspicion
that the info isn't on the up and up? Do you spin it then? Or do you do
some questioning? Are the $$$ bigger than the ethics?
How about when some convincing flake passes plausible BS to the
reporter? The reporter, you say is obligated to determine the material is
true, yet you have no responsibility to make sure its true in the first
place. In other words, you can BS the public... if nobody catches it at the
news desk.

"Casey Wilson" N2310D @ gmail.com wrote in message
news8vbe.6699$yc.5724@trnddc07...

wrote in message

No he was given false info by his client who paid him to get it out in
the
press. He had no responsibility to prove everything that he gave the
press
was true. If PR people had to do that they would all be out of business
in a
week. Their job is to spin information to put their client in the best
light.

On the other hand the press has a responsibility to check facts.
ESPECIALLY
when it comes from a PR firm.



In other words, I DO understand this.

So..., If a client gives a PR person something to spin, the PR hack
has NO responsibility. That's what your understanding is? It doesn't
matter whether the material is good or total BS?
I predict some back-pedalling coming here. Like, "Oh well, if I KNOW
it's BS, I won't take the job." Well, how about when you have some
suspicion that the info isn't on the up and up? Do you spin it then? Or
do you do some questioning? Are the $$$ bigger than the ethics?
How about when some convincing flake passes plausible BS to the
reporter? The reporter, you say is obligated to determine the material is
true, yet you have no responsibility to make sure its true in the first
place. In other words, you can BS the public... if nobody catches it at
the news desk.


Nope no back pedaling from me. You see, I have no doubt of the lack of
morals of PR people. I didn't when I was in the press and that hasn't
changed.

IMHO, you are a little too sensitive as to what you think the public
will think, UNLESS we're talking about an airport near which a political
movement is underfoot to close it. Most people in general circumstances
will forget the story in a few days. In any case, the bottom line is
that if we pilots were as perfect at flying as you wish reporters were
at reporting, there would be practically no accidents to report (these
being the relatively few pure mechanical failures), and therefore no
cause for your angst.

Andrew Gideon wrote:
RomeoMike wrote:

Casey Wilson wrote:

InÂ*otherÂ*words,Â*youÂ*canÂ*BSÂ*theÂ*public...Â*i fÂ*nobodyÂ*catchesÂ*itÂ*atÂ*the
news desk.

Back to politics, are we?

- Andrew

"Matt Barrow"
That's where Germany attacked the US and drew us into the Spanish-American
War.


"Remember the...starts with "M" ...Merrimack"

Half the kids in my 1977 High School history class drew a line (east to
west) across Asia, Europe, the Atlantic Ocean, North America, and out into
the Pacific Ocean to Hawaii - to show the route Japan used to attack Pearl
Harbor. Some went around Africa and South America because they knew it had
something to do with aircraft carriers.

Yup, flat map - US on the left, Japan on the right.


Montblack

RomeoMike wrote:

Most people in general circumstances
will forget the story in a few days.

I'd like to think you're right. But companies pay a lot for "branding", so
I'm left feeling that comments such as those from this particular reporter
do "add up" in the public consciousness.

In any case, the bottom line is
that if we pilots were as perfect at flying as you wish reporters were
at reporting, there would be practically no accidents to report (these
being the relatively few pure mechanical failures), and therefore no
cause for your angst.

I'd pit our record against theirs any day.

- Andrew

In article , RomeoMike
wrote:

IMHO, you are a little too sensitive as to what you think the public
will think, UNLESS we're talking about an airport near which a political
movement is underfoot to close it.

snip

There *is* a political movement afoot to close HPN, there has been for
years, ever since the McMansions started going up all around the
airport about 15 years ago. There are all these aviation enthusiasts
buying homes off the approach end of the main runway and then getting
upset about it and doing their damndest to cklose the airport.

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
"Matt Barrow"
That's where Germany attacked the US and drew us into the
Spanish-American
War.


"Remember the...starts with "M" ...Merrimack"

Half the kids in my 1977 High School history class drew a line (east to
west) across Asia, Europe, the Atlantic Ocean, North America, and out into
the Pacific Ocean to Hawaii - to show the route Japan used to attack Pearl
Harbor. Some went around Africa and South America because they knew it had
something to do with aircraft carriers.

They didn't know that Japan moved her entire attack force throught the
Panama Canal, huh?

Yup, flat map - US on the left, Japan on the right.

Flat map -- flat earth!!


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO