It was really close...

Jay,

Commercial air carriers have tightened their security to the point
where (I suspect) it would be impossible for a 9/11-style attack to
succeed again using commercial airliners as weapons.

Not to mention the fact that the passengers would immediately and
violently resist, as opposed to the pre-9/11 hands-in-your-lap approach
to a hijacking.


Sorry, but me thinks you live in a dream world. The "security" is window
dressing, nothing else. It looks good to voters. That's it.

When have you last flown commercially?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

The maximum Takeoff Gross Weight limit for a C-150 is a legal limit,
not a physical limit.

The physical limit isn't much higher. And you run out of payload
SPACE probably before you hit that...

You'll run out of ability to maintain level flight long before you
get to the structural limits.

Ron Natalie wrote:

The maximum Takeoff Gross Weight limit for a C-150 is a legal
limit,
not a physical limit.

The physical limit isn't much higher. And you run out of payload
SPACE probably before you hit that...

You'll run out of ability to maintain level flight long before you
get to the structural limits.


On a cool day a long runway and some patience the physical limit is
much higher. Don't know how much but I wouldn't be suprised if it
could be double on a winter day. Add a 150 or even a 180HP engine and
the physical limit is huge.

"John Lakesford" wrote in message
...
I bet you will or have done something just as stupid in an airplane.

Give these guys a break. The weren't terrorists, I don't care if they did
violate airspace.

Strange reaction, if you are a pilot, or are concerned about the rights of
general aviation. What happened is hard to comprehend, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC

John Lakesford wrote:
I agree.

And Honeck (according to his address) flies outta Iowa City, IA and not DC.
I fly out of the middle of nowhere and can't imagine what it is like flying
around the nations capitol.

Well, I've flown west of DC many times and into DC once. I flew into
National at night prior to 9/11. It was actually a piece of cake. I
was rather nervous on the way in having to get an IFR reservation, be
within a certain time window, etc., but it was actually much easier than
I expected. I got vectored out of line to let three airliners land and
circled a few times over one of the monuments, I forget which one now,
but it wasn't far from the prohibited area. It was really easy to see
the landmarks at night and it would have been very hard to fly near the
White House and not know it. The Potomac also provides a very good
landmark.

The only hard part was taxing in after landing!


So I will give these guys the benefit of the doubt. They screwed up, and so
have I.

Yes, they did and in a very serious way.

I fly from a fairly rural area (ELM and N38), but if I fly near a
metropolitan area I make sure I'm prepared. If I'm not, then I don't go
there. These guys were unprepared in several very fundamental ways and
shouldn't have been within 50 miles of DC in their stage of preparation.


Matt

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message ...

Sorry, but me thinks you live in a dream world. The "security" is window
dressing, nothing else. It looks good to voters. That's it.

When have you last flown commercially?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)


We all need to get the word out to the voters that this IS window dressing and nothing more. The threat is from the
person, not the aircraft or the box cutter. Good police work is the key here, not mass searches and detainments. We need
to know who the bad guys are; they definitely are not us!

Morgans wrote:

What happened is hard to comprehend, IMHO.

Easy enough for me to comprehend just as soon as I learned the pilot is 70. My
grandfather got sort of wifty in his late 60s, and one day when he was 70 he
took the car down "for an oil change" and didn't come back. The family alerted
the police, and they found him the next day halfway across Carolina. He "got
lost." Time to sell the Chrysler and revoke his driving license (actually, the
family knew that it was way past time for the latter).

So. Time to sell the Cessna and revoke his pilot certificate.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

"George Patterson" wrote

So. Time to sell the Cessna and revoke his pilot certificate.

If senility is the cause, yeah, I know what you mean. My grandpa did almost
exactly the same thin, with getting lost and keeping going.

We will see, if that is the cause.
--
Jim in NC

On Fri, 13 May 2005 01:39:05 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote:


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message

Officials Weighed Shooting at Errant Plane
By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer 37 minutes ago

As a wayward Cessna

What really amazes me is that there will apparently be no certificate action
taken against these two nimrods. Not only did they barge right into

Nimrods? You are calling them "mighty hunters" or referring to the
descendents of a mighty hunter. (Webster's New Collegiate) With their
navigational abilities and situational awareness, I doubt they'd find
the woods, let alone the game. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

probably the best known restricted/prohibited airspace in the world, but,
according to one of the scrambled F16 pilots, they continued on this errant
course for several minutes while the interceptors were crossing paths and
ejecting flares. What in God's name did they think was going on? Just how
stupid do you have to be?

On 16 May 2005 13:34:12 -0700, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


I don't have a problem with an ADIZ. The problem I have is that
airliners which can carry more explosives than a Ryder truck are
allowed to fly in it, but GA planes are not.

They have made it inconvenient enough I refuse to fly commercial.

The they implement a security system bass ackwards.
They have a watch list.
They wait for someone on the watch list to try to board a plane.
If the terrorist doesn't get on a plane the list does nothing.
If the terrorist strikes a non aviation target the list doesn't work.

Were it me (and I'm already paying for it) why not investigate the
people on the list? Clear the ones proven not to be a threat and go
after the ones who are. I'd like to get something for my money.

If you read the security journals you see how many things we have
implemented from over reaction. Things where the investment far
outweighs the return.

Here are a couple of links related to security, national id cards
better know as the uniform drivers license act, and secure flight.
:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0502.html#1
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0410.html#3

This guy puts out a pretty good news letter.

It's a *lot* of reading, but for those interested in security on
multiple levels it should prove interesting.


Commercial air carriers have tightened their security to the point
where (I suspect) it would be impossible for a 9/11-style attack to
succeed again using commercial airliners as weapons.


There are those who would share a difference of opinion here. Yes, it
would be more difficult.

Not to mention the fact that the passengers would immediately and
violently resist, as opposed to the pre-9/11 hands-in-your-lap approach
to a hijacking.

I think you give the average citizen far, far to much credit.

It takes some one with a fair amount of aggression, or some one really
scared to fight. Now, on a good sized airliner I would assume there
would be enough of such individuals to take down one, maybe two
individuals even if they are armed with something sharp.

One thing most people don't realize is when faced with a fight for
your life (guns fight, knife fight, some one trying to hijack the
plane you are on.. just pick a situation), your fine motor skills
desert you like rats leaving a sinking ship. Not realizing what is
happening many people just cease to function at that point. It's not
really by choice either. For a person who has never experienced it
the first time is much like being in one of those dreams where trying
to catch some one or something, or running from some one or some thing
and every thing seems to be in slow motion along with a feeling of
futility. Not that things happen in slow motion, but it's about the
best analogy I can think of at 3:00 AM.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com