737 off runway, Pearson Toronto

"Kev" writes:

[...] For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then
crashed off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because
they followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be
over landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them
all.) [...]

I recall reading, probably in the official accident analysis report,
that this speculation is not actually true. Something like the fire
would have still consumed the cockpit by the time they'd landed, even
right away, over-gross.

- FChE

Happy Dog wrote:
What paperwork? This is one of those urban legends that just won't die.

http://www.avweb.com/news/system/183214-1.html

Is this article substantially incorrect?


My reading of the article indicates that there is rarely any paperwork for the
pilot. That was my experience with my T-34 incident. OTOH, when I crashed the
Lance, there was an ungodly amount of paperwork and a lengthy interview. The
difference was in the T-34 incident, there was no property damage and no injury.
In the Lance crash, there was both.

There was no certificate action with either.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
Happy Dog wrote:
What paperwork? This is one of those urban legends that just won't die.

http://www.avweb.com/news/system/183214-1.html

Is this article substantially incorrect?

My reading of the article indicates that there is rarely any paperwork for
the pilot. That was my experience with my T-34 incident. OTOH, when I
crashed the Lance, there was an ungodly amount of paperwork and a lengthy
interview.

I should have added "review". The point being that *something* significant,
bureaucratically speaking, happens when an emergency is declared that
doesn't happen when one isn't.

moo

Happy Dog wrote:

I should have added "review". The point being that *something* significant,
bureaucratically speaking, happens when an emergency is declared that
doesn't happen when one isn't.

But not, usually, to the pilot, and never to the pilot simply for declaring an
emergency.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:v0eIe.5638$b91.3279@trndny06...
Happy Dog wrote:

I should have added "review". The point being that *something*
significant, bureaucratically speaking, happens when an emergency is
declared that doesn't happen when one isn't.

But not, usually, to the pilot, and never to the pilot simply for
declaring an emergency.

Correct. I was mistaken. I always believed that declaring an emergency was
an "incident" (correct) and that, as such, *some* paperwork had to be filled
out.
The only time there is any paperwork is if you have to violate a rule, and
then only if the FAA asks for a report. I have heard, more than once,
pilots advising other not to declare unless absolutely necessary. I also
recall an incident where I had a passenger pass out for well over a minute
during some very mild acro (Lazy - 8). I mentioned to an instructor that I
was preparing to declare an emergency when the guy woke up. By "emergency",
I mean the whole routine. The instructor suggested that it would be
overreacting. I still disagree. The whole procedure would have taken
fifteen seconds, would have told authorities the problem, my intended action
and request for assistance and freed me up to deal with the problem proper.

FAR 91.3

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of
this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written
report of that deviation to the Administrator.

Research first. Mouth later.

moo

Happy Dog wrote:
The only time there is any paperwork is if you have to violate a rule, and
then only if the FAA asks for a report.


Not quite. If there's an accident with injuries you're going to be filling out
paperwork assuming you're still alive.


recall an incident where I had a passenger pass out for well over a minute
during some very mild acro (Lazy - 8). I mentioned to an instructor that I
was preparing to declare an emergency when the guy woke up. By "emergency",
I mean the whole routine. The instructor suggested that it would be
overreacting. I still disagree.


As do I. The fellow may have been having a heart attack or a stroke... you
don't know. It's like when a family member complains about chest pain: do you
call for an ambulance or throw them in the car? Well, if they code , what are
you going to do? Watch them die? Wreck the car? Hell, no. Wait for the
ambulance ALWAYS unless somebody competent is available to tend them all the
way.

In the air, your first concern should be to get back on the ground ASAP. That
will probably require priority treatment from ATC, so declare your emergency
and get down. A loss of consciousness for more than a few seconds is very
significant... lazy eights just don't pull any Gs to speak of that would explain
it. Whoever that guy was had some significant health issues that needed
immediate assessment and treatment, even if he did come back to life after a
minute or two. He had more events in his future if he didn't get this
investigated. Loss of consciousness just isn't a normal event under those
circumstances.

As a registered nurse and pilot, I think your first impulse was correct. Your
instructor lacked either the experience or the imagination to give you good
advice on this one.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:v0eIe.5638$b91.3279@trndny06...
Happy Dog wrote:

I should have added "review". The point being that *something*
significant,
bureaucratically speaking, happens when an emergency is declared that
doesn't happen when one isn't.

But not, usually, to the pilot, and never to the pilot simply for
declaring an
emergency.


Unless the declared emergency stems from a violation of the FAR's.

Dave,

An eyewitness to the landing and crash.


My point was that the witness could have seen the lightning strike, but
he could definitely not have known if and how much the plane or the
pilots "lost all control".

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Kev,

For example, remember Swiss Air 111 that caught fire and then crashed
off Newfoundland before they could land? (Basically because they
followed the book and circled dumping fuel... so as not to be over
landing weight... but the time wasted doing that killed them all.)


Not so. The accident investigation showed that the time wouldn't have
been sufficient even when going for a landing immediately. That doesn't
mean to say they couldn't/shouldn't have acted differently.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in
Happy Dog wrote:
The only time there is any paperwork is if you have to violate a rule,
and
then only if the FAA asks for a report.


Not quite. If there's an accident with injuries

An accident with injuries isn't an incident. You knew that, right?

recall an incident where

there were no injuries

As do I. The fellow may have been having a heart attack or a stroke...
you don't know. It's like when a family member complains about chest
pain: do you call for an ambulance or throw them in the car? Well, if
they code , what are you going to do? Watch them die? Wreck the car?
Hell, no. Wait for the ambulance ALWAYS unless somebody competent is
available to tend them all the way.

In the air, your first concern should be to get back on the ground ASAP.

C'mon. *Think*.

snip

moo