Stop whining, America!

W P Dixon wrote:
Ships are designed to flex. Remember back in WWII when Kaiser was
building liberty ships, it was a problem because Kaiser had the entire
thing welded up tight, versus riveted. He built them a heck of alot
faster, but a few sank because they could not flex.

Except that your explanation above isn't even close to correct. Do a
quick search, that reason for the failure of the liberty ships is easy
to find. It had to do with poor welds and substandard steel and the
fact that welds won't stop the propogation of cracks the way that rivet
holes will. ALL structures flex under load, doesn't matter if they are
riveted, welded, nailed, screwed or glued. A structure can't support a
load until it deflects to at least some degree.


Matt

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:24:41 +0200, Martin Hotze
wrote:


I meant: after saving energy (with using better insulation, for example),
THEN you aren't that dependent on energy any longer.


When I built my house, I went to the extra expense of getting it TVA
certified (Tennessee Valley Authorithy). They had a program where I
could get sort of a rebate for the extra cost. The rationale for that
was that they would need less generating capacity if new homes were
insulated and other stuff.

Well, our local power distributer here has changed my electric meter 3
times because they couldn't believe that I was using so little
electricity.

Now, they've calibrated the meter to put me equal to the neighbors.

Mike Weller

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2005-08-28, Chris wrote:
...only $5.40 a gallon for avgas in the UK.

admittedly it was on the Island of Jersey (EGJJ)

For heaven's sake don't let the locals know you said Jersey was part of
the UK! The Channel Islands isn't part of the UK, even though it's
British territory.


I know but try explaining that to Americans.

Now, they've calibrated the meter to put me equal to the neighbors.

In other words, they cheated? Why not calibrate your payments?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment, you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

LS
N646F

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"ls" wrote in message
...
George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well --


Not in the NY-NJ area it hasn't.

I must have missed it here in our area too (central TX) because, last I
checked, the local economy was anything but red hot. For example, a
little over a year ago I applied for a job answering phones for Sears -
they had had _1700_ applicants for that one job at that time. That was
basically the story for every job I applied for.

Regarding the cost of our infrastructure, it's not a simple equation.
One of the reasons labor is so expensive in the US is because it's so
well protected. You have to pay a minimum wage, you have to provide a
minimal level of safety in your work environment,

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

you can't hire 15 year
old children, nor make them work 14 hour days for 5 dollars, you have to
follow various rules as far as time off and benifits and so on.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers. They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

In fact, the history of labor in the US is long and bloody - those
protections aren't just onerous inconveniences for the rich, but
hard-won protections for the people and their families.

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Now it should be clear why "globalization" is so seductive for US
businesses - other economies such as China and India don't have the same
protections in place for their labor pools. In fact, they're just ripe
for the picking as well as cheap, cheap, cheap.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.


When you can hire and use a foreign laborer for 1/10 of the cost of an
American equivalent to do the same job, well, there goes your
high-fallootin' principles against exploitation of cheap labor.

Don't ask me why I know all this.....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.


In sum, there's a LOT wrong with our current situation - it's
complicated and will be very difficult and painful to fix...

....as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC. (Owner)
Montrose, CO

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:

Perhaps our parents were investing in infrastructure, and we're simply
using it. Thus the apparent efficiency.

Our parents in the 1950s and '60s invested in the Interstate Highway
System, basic electronics research and funding, a great higher
educational system,

That creates functional illiterates.

water and sewage systems,

See the story about the Alaska fish processers.

and an expensive
military. Most of this was paid for with taxes and we got good return
on investment because that tax money was used to pay for
something--basic infrastructure--which would improve the general
economy.

Interesting viewpoint!

For milch cows.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

No, I've not heard that story. Do you have a reference for it?

--Gary

Matt Barrow wrote:

Safety procedures are actually quite cheap, and done right can make things
MORE efficient.

For example, OSHA require we fabricate our work scaffolds in a certain
manner and using certain materials and parts. My CS (Construction
Supervisor) can make a MUCH better scaffold )moe rigid, more stable) out of
material lying around the job site. It costs a few hundred dollars in time
and material. OSHA's, takes days and costs about $10,000.

Ever hear the story of the fish processing plant in Alaska that was shut
down because it's water discharge was not done my EPA guidelines even
through it's discharge was like six times cleaner than the EPA rules?

Of course, but what if there were no OSHA and no laws governing
occupational safety and health? How strong would the incentive be then
to implement _any_ safety procedures whatsoever? No need to answer out
loud, just think about it. Hint: US history provides a good answer to
this question.

Gee, I'd like to find some 15 year old Civil Engineers.

I'm sure you would.....

They must be state
certified (that's MY requirement, not the states).

ANd then they took those protections to such idiotic extremes, such as
requiring five people on shift to do the work that two could handle easily.

Ever go by a road construction site and see a whole crew just standing
around leaning in shovels and just shooting the breeze?

Sorry - merely pointing out abuses of the rules doesn't make a case for
eliminating them.

And their efficiencies...the same efficiencies that got the US it's big
boost in the 1800's.

Heh. You obviously have never worked for an outsourcer....

It's quite evident how you know this: it's the same bilge the public
"education" system has been cramming up kids asses for a couple generations.

Nope. Try again.....

...as long as we need/demand government bureaucracy to fix it.

Sorry, again, merely pointing out abuses doesn't make your case against
bereaucracy (though it's certainly undeniable that such things do happen).

There are well-known and well-worn reasons that we need governments,
regardless of the abuses of its power that you're pointing out.

All of this is in the history and philosophy books....

LS
N646F

Morgans wrote:

Now, for all of you sailors out there, we did very little right, that day.
It was the first year, (we didn't know nearly enough) and we were still
learning, and not well equipped for such storms. We got a storm jib (very
small) and another set of reefs for the main, (to make it smaller, yet) and
purchased a sea anchor. That is a unit that looks somewhat like a wind
sock, and provides a way to let the boat drag through the water, and pull on
the boat to keep it pointed in the direction that you need.

Every experienced sailor has been there at one time or another. One
thing that's good to know is how to heave-to. You basically set the
headsail on an opposing tack and lash the tiller hard to windward, and
the boat *should* just sort of hang right there. Depending on wind
direction this may give you a better option than dragging on a drogue,
especially if you've got a lee shore nearby.

http://www.sailonline.com/seamanship...ng_to_man.html

The "should" part of this is that not all boats heave-to equally well
depending on the keel and rig design, so it's good to practice before
it's a real emergency.

-cwk.