ELT Required for all SSA sanctioned contests starting 2006

snip
Does anyone know of a way to activate
an EPIRB automatically in the event of a crash ?

Alright: challenge to all of the electronics whizz-kids out the how
about adding a tiny glider mounted tri-axial accelerometer that plugs
into the EPIRB? If you have a mid-air or ride your glider into the
crash, it will activate. If you bail out and sever the connection, it
will activate or you turn it on yourself after you landed out in the
boonies where your cell phone dosen't work.

Uli Neumann


Ian, that question is exactly why I posted the 'challenge' above.

Uli

Don Johnstone wrote:

Which is why proper aircraft PLBs, not the marine EPIRB
or backpackers PLB, have that capability

http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.htm which has a 'G' switch
activation amongst others (see data sheet on page)

they also produce models for the current frequency
SABRE 5/6 for example. I have looked at other sites
and the PLBs I have seen have the ability to automatically
activate.

http://www.hr-smith.com/products.htm

This site has no details on the units and the pictures don't load. Is
there site that describes them in detail, particularly the activation,
and has a picture? Is there vendor for them, or at least prices? I
couldn't either.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , David Kinsell
writes

309 wrote:

Just wait until the civil aviation authority reuqires you to trade your
VolksLogger for an 88 parameter Digital Flight Data Recorder (a.k.a.
"black box," in airline parlance), which will require everything short
of a rectal probe. They HAVE contributed to aircraft safety, albeit
for the NEXT generation of pilots and aircraft. Understanding what
happened (and studying how to prevent it) is important to helping our
sports survive. A shame our data loggers aren't being force fed to the
power aviation fleet.

You're making a little joke? At best, the information to be extracted
is rather minimal. Usually, there's nothing there at all, as the little
backup battery held in place by a simple spring clip is jarred out of
place and the data in RAM goes away in seconds. Hardly a substitute for
a black box.

-Dave


That might be true of some older recorders, but later recorders are
better in their construction and the use of Non-volatile memory.

The analysis of IGC traces post accident can be informative, of
sometimes show that the accident became inevitable some time before the
actual event. Plan Ahead!

Let's see, vertical descent became extreme. Was that because the
wings fell off, or did the wings fall off after exceeding redline?
Without attitude indication, cockpit recordings, and a host of other
parameters recorded in real black boxes, there's little to go on. The
data may be interesting, but hardly the stuff that prevents future
accidents.


It has been written into the specification for IGC Flight Recorders for
some time that they should be "Crashworthy".

Heck, if it's that easy, why not require that gliders be "Crashworthy"??
That would solve the whole problem. Just build them out of the same stuff
they use for IGC Flight Recorders.

-Dave




Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Are we mixing up terms here . . . or am I just confused (as usual)?

PLB = personal locator beacon (i.e. small and meant to be carried)

EPIRB = emergency position indicating radio beacon

ELT = emergency locator transmitter

Of these, AFAIK, only ELT's, either the old 121.5/243 MHz or the newer 406
MHz include a G-switch to trigger the unit (hopefully) in the event of a
crash.

The post I made the other day on 406 MHz pricing had some misinformation.
The 406 ELT Chief Aircraft has for $1589 USD, has three externally mounted
antennas required. If you'd like a single output (antenna) version, that'll
be $1825. If you'd like your shiny new ELT to get GPS info (it doesn't have
one built in just yet), that'll cost an additional $1358.00.

That little Piper Super Cub that took off from Jackpot Nevada last
Wednesday, father and 17 year old daughter, bound for Davis California is
still missing. Much of the terrain in between is high desert, mountains, and
desolate.

Having the beacon with me is more important to me that having it go down
with the glider. I'm buying a PLB with integral GPS for about $500.

bumper




"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Don Johnstone
wrote:


Automatic activation in a crash is absolutely essential.

Which is why proper aircraft PLBs, not the marine EPIRB
or backpackers PLB, have that capability

In that case, assuming they can be properly mounted they'd
be great.



T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Eric, first of all, your participation here, as always,
is welcome, and I am glad you have responded. As usual,
I respect your adding your (very well thought out voice)
to this. I'm going to make some points here that are
subtle.

First of all, you are right, I was probably using hyperbole
to make a point. There may not be hundreds of ELT
accidental activations caused by this rule. It may
be less, or even none. I don't know for sure, but
I am going to write about reasons why accidental activations
may be more common than your experience.

Hmmm...making some guesses he

Is your trailer very well padded so the fuselage isn't
damaged during trailering?

Do you have the kind of ELT that required a bit more
sophistication to install, and has a remote activation
button with a small LED light that tells you if it
accidentally activates?

Did you install this ELT voluntarily, and carefully
read the documentation with it about how to install
it correctly and how to dial in 121.5 on the radio
to listen for false activations?

You land real gentle in your nice glider don't you?
Thats why you have so many flights and trailerings,
instead of having it in the repair shop, right?

I'm guessing that for you, and most of your friends,
the answer to all of these will be 'yes.'

For the folks at the 'margin' for whom the added ELT
cost is almost too much to ask to enter a contest,
the answer to these questions may be 'no.' Their trailers
may not be the
$5000-$10,000 cobra with super suspension. The ELT
may be the old non-remote kind bought secondhand with
no documents, and installed themselves non-perfectly.
Their landiing may not be pretty.

These same folks, at the margin, may highly respect
the volunteer efforts of the contest organizers and
want to install the ELT to accomodate their wishes.
But this may not change the economics that they can't
afford a brand new ELT with remote LED professionally
installed, much less a 406MHz GPS unit...

You and I are talking about different things. I don't
think you or most of the other experienced, devoted,
contest pilots with moderate incomes will have that
much of a problem complying with this 'minor change'
to the rules.

But others, including Marc Ramsey, and me, and some
others see this as another brick stacked up in a wall
that creates a slightly larger barrier to entry into
this sport. This barrier affects lower-income, entering
pilots more than those who are already contest fliers.
And at some point too many bricks makes the wall too
high.

There will be some who overcome this, and there will
be some who don't. I think the contest numbers next(?)
year of #s of entrants who have installed ELTs, and
numbers of 'new' entrants compared to prior years,
will speak to this.

I hope I am wrong. I honestly do. In the meantime
I will bang the drum loudly about barriers to entry,
especially for lower-income pilots. And I hope this
will strike a balance opposite those who are willing
to require $$$$s for marginal improvements in the name
of 'safety.'

On the subject of ELTs, I have had one go off accidentally
(the cheapo non-LED kind) when the switch was flicked
by putting in a backpack in the backseat. After engine
shutdown I caught it by the bleedover on the radio
(ASEL).

Three weeks ago a fellow pilot (low timer) had the
police break into his hangar, and subsequently call
him, after a hard landing (ASEL).

Low-timers are more likely to fly lower-quality equipment,
land harder, and have less sophisticated senses about
how to detect accidental activation. And they won't
as commonly have the LED on to warn them of accidental
activations.

Anyway, I enjoy further discussion on this, if you
think it is productive, and appreciate your thoughts
and counterpoints.

At 00:12 08 September 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
M B wrote:

G activated ELTs in gliders? This should make the
contest pilots very well known with the local police
and CAP. After a few hundred false ELT alarms from
contest pilots who have the thing bumping around in
the trailer, we'll see how this pans out.

I've trailered my ELT equipped glider for about 60,000
miles without a
single activation, and I don't even secure it for travel.
I've made
about 300 flights with it, again without activation.
I don't know what
airplane pilots do to accidentally activate theirs,
but it doesn't seem
to happen in the ELT equipped gliders I know about.

I haven't crashed with it yet, so I can't document
that part of it's
ability.


--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Mark J. Boyd

At 16:18 08 September 2005, Bumper wrote:
Are we mixing up terms here . . . or am I just confused
(as usual)?

PLB = personal locator beacon (i.e. small and meant
to be carried)

EPIRB = emergency position indicating radio beacon

ELT = emergency locator transmitter

Of these, AFAIK, only ELT's, either the old 121.5/243
MHz or the newer 406
MHz include a G-switch to trigger the unit (hopefully)
in the event of a
crash.

There is no mix up of terms. The Sarbe GR2 series of
Personal Locator Beacons, that is the ones you carry
do have a G switch to trigger the unit in the event
of a crash (or ejection). Details at http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.htm.
From the menu on that page you can select Datasheet
which gives details. The Sarbe beacons are in use worldwide
by the military but there are civilian versions. I
am awaiting a reply from them as to cost but it won't
be cheap. While the Sarbe site shows details of the
earlier versions Sarbe5/6 they have said that as from
January this year they do not accept orders for those
models, presumably because they do not have the new
frequency. I would add that I do not work in the aviation
industry or have any connection with Sarbe, I do know
a couple of people who vouched for their efficiency.

A firm callled H R Smith also provides PLBs which are
automatically activated see:
http://80.168.111.36/servlet/HRSmith...displayproduct
s&prodtype=Personal+Locator+Beacon

You will have to re-construct the URL to get it to
work if it is split over 2 lines. I have no other details
of these units.

EPIRBs are mainly for use in the marine world. PLBs
and ELT are produced for aviation use.

Don Johnstone wrote:

There is no mix up of terms. The Sarbe GR2 series of
Personal Locator Beacons, that is the ones you carry
do have a G switch to trigger the unit in the event
of a crash (or ejection). Details at http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.htm.
From the menu on that page you can select Datasheet
which gives details.

Are you sure it is crash activated? Or is it activated by the G loads
when the pilot ejects? I couldn't determine that from the brochure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 18:06 08 September 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Don Johnstone wrote:

There is no mix up of terms. The Sarbe GR2 series
of
Personal Locator Beacons, that is the ones you carry
do have a G switch to trigger the unit in the event
of a crash (or ejection). Details at http://www.sarbe.com/g2r.ht
m.
From the menu on that page you can select Datasheet
which gives details.

Are you sure it is crash activated? Or is it activated
by the G loads
when the pilot ejects? I couldn't determine that from
the brochure.

Both, and immersion in water and pulling the pin.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Not so fast.................Artex has re-called these already....
tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:mLITe.316115$_o.53729@attbi_s71...
Hi,

I will soon have "low cost" 406 ELTs from Artex for $995. They are listed
on my web site. I don't have them in stock yet but they should be
available in a few weeks.
http://www.soarmn.com/cumulus/elts.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"bumper" wrote in message
news

"Martin Eiler" wrote in message
...
Most people consider pilot safety as everything needed until that pilot
is
safe and sound at his intended destination. Pilots spend thousands of
dollars per year on auto, glider and life insurance. Yet there is this
whine about spending a few hundred dollars one time on a piece of
equipment
that could mean the difference between life and death, in the event of a
crash.

As we are all aware, the old 121.5 MHz ELTs are on their way out, with
only 3 more years of promised satallite coverage. The few 406 MHz ELTs
that I've seen have yet to see much of a price drop.

From Chief Aircraft:

Ameri-King AK-450, a popular 121.5 ELT: $183.75 USD

Artex G406, a 406 MHz ELT: $1589.00

Handheld radios, cell and satellite phones are all excellent items
for your land out kits, but none of them are automatically activated
during
a crash; nor will phones or radios be of any use if you become
unconscious.


One of the many problems with the real world experience of the older
ELTs, is that in most cases they have not activated automatically in a
crash. They do, however, seem to activate for a myrid number of non-crash
reasons such as hard landings and whatever. And almost all activations
have been false.

Pilots who fly in remote, mountainous and wilderness areas should
reconsider
installing an ELT, if not for themselves, then maybe for their families
who
may lose a loved one simply because they weren't found in time.



M Eiler


The argument I've seen most often against the US contest requirement for
an installed ELT, is not that there isn't a need for this sort of thing
at all, but rather that a PLB (personal locator beacon) is a more viable
solution. PLBs can be small enough to attach to a parachute harness,
operate on 406 MHz (so won't become obsolete in 3 years), can be had with
built in GPS to send a precise location, and will direct search personnel
to the pilot as opposed to the wreckage. Further, they are registered to
the pilot so searcher know who they are looking for, and obviously will
work in more than just one vehicle or activity. Prices have come down to
the $500 -$700 range (w/ GPS built in).

bumper

Don Johnstone wrote:

Are you sure it is crash activated? Or is it activated
by the G loads
when the pilot ejects? I couldn't determine that from
the brochure.


Both, and immersion in water and pulling the pin.

And do they claim the G threshold is suitable for small general aviation
aircraft? Again, everything I read on their site suggests these units
are not aimed at people like us. Maybe I'm not finding the right section.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA