Gas Prices -- Help at last?

In article ,
".Blueskies." wrote:

No socialism here, just want to make sure the true costs are accounted for.
Maybe the costs of roads should be captured
in the cost of a new car?

Would that be actual cost, rather than the taxation used in some
states (excise taxes based on value)?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Jay Honeck wrote:

Think taxes. There are people (waaaay too many) that think gas
should be taxed so that it costs a "more reasonable" price at the
pump (i.e., the insane prices in other countries).

hmm. what is insane about it? so you are in need to be conservative about
spending gas (or have a good income) and you are more likely willed to
search for alternatives.


Okay -- let's follow that train for a moment.

Europe has been subjected to insane fuel prices (thanks to
over-taxation) for a generation.

Other than governments grown fat and wasteful, what good has come of
it? Where are all the "alternative fuels" that you
environmentally-aware Europeans have "discovered" simply because you
artificially (and, apparently, proudly) paid a fortune for oil-based
fuels?

The answer is: There aren't any. The closest you've come is diesel,
and THAT is an alternative fuel ONLY because your governments haven't
taxed it as much.

And they have paid a high environmental price for its use. This is now
being addressed finally (and the company I work for is immensely
grateful!), but it will take time to get diesels as clean as gasoline
engines have been for a decade or so now.

Matt

..Blueskies. wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com...

Not exactly - everyone needs to get used to $6.00 a gallon gas, then the alternative energy possibilities will be
cost
competitive. Providing subsidies or tax incentives or old military bases to the oil companies simply puts off the
free
market solution.

There is no "free market" here with regard to the construction of
refineries.

In fact, the removal of onerous legislative barriers -- which is what
this bill attempts (and fails, BTW) to do -- will once again allow the
free market to prevail.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I read that the proposal was the gov't was going to basically give away some old "military bases" to build refineries
on, if that is not a subsidy then nothing is. If you look at the true cost of an oil based economy; maintenance of
roads, keeping air breathable, water drinkable, soil growable, then the rules and regs that the oil companies currently
operate under are more than lenient enough. If you want to go back the old black skies Pittsburg steel mill balls to the
wall screw the environment way of doing business, then you might as well go to China. I personally want the USA to stay
nice for my kids. 'Free Market' business needs to be held accountable. I imagine you keep the sheets clean at the
Alexis, no? Well unfortunately someone needs to make sure the sheets stay clean down at the old refinery also....

Well, I'll bet the value of the land isn't even close to the costs to
install the required pollution and safety equipment mandated by the
government. So this is hardly what I call a subsidy. If the government
lowers or offsets part of my taxes, I don't call that a subsidy if I'm
still paying taxes.


Matt

In article ,
Martin Hotze wrote:

Think taxes. There are people (waaaay too many) that think gas
should be taxed so that it costs a "more reasonable" price at the
pump (i.e., the insane prices in other countries).

hmm. what is insane about it? so you are in need to be conservative about
spending gas (or have a good income) and you are more likely willed to
search for alternatives.

Why is it sane to artificially raise the price of gas? Does the end justify
the means? Conservation and alternative fuels are certainly some to
look forward to, but at what price?

Do you understand how the "solutions" throughout Europe might not
be applicable in parts of the US? For example, while public transportation
could be more efficient than autos in major US cities, it would be much
more challenging to create public transportation in areas where houses
are 20+ miles from the nearest store. Tell me how conservation, alternative
fuels, and public transportation would work in Alaska or in areas of US
farmlands.

Looking at it from a different direction, it could be argued that the
population densities that lead to efficient public transportation are
a symptom of overpopulation. We simply shouldn't have that many
people trying to live in such a small area.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Another German jerk know-it-all. I've got my well pipe down 250' (that's 75
meters for you idiots on the metric system) into pure snow and ice runoff
from the Sierra. Betcha mine is cleaner than yours.

Jim



"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...


Your with chlorine (sp?) cleaned water is %$&§$%!!!

Also, as someone else pointed out, them thar refineries ain't cheap. In
fact, those things cost buttloads of money to build, run and maintain.
Huge buttloads...... Not only that, don't forget about those oil rigs
down in the gulf that broke off their moorings during the hurricanes and
are now Galveston beachfront resorts. Those things are going to cost a
hell of a lot to replace too......

All of which are depreciated and amortized over a scheduled period of
time. The actual cost is paid by all consumers, amounting to pennies on
the gallon.

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net

Perhaps the government
should get into the production and refining business and offer some
"competition" or incentive to the oil industry. Any government profits
could be used to support the general fund or any other lawful
government endeavor.

Seriously?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

John T wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net

Perhaps the government
should get into the production and refining business and offer some
"competition" or incentive to the oil industry. Any government profits
could be used to support the general fund or any other lawful
government endeavor.


Seriously?


Yes, has anyone an example of a government run business or anything else
for that matter that ever turned a profit?


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
Yes, has anyone an example of a government run business or anything else
for that matter that ever turned a profit?

I could try to dig up some numbers, but I believe there
are (or at least were) a couple of examples of post offices
(gvt run administrations in a few countries) that actually are
doing reasonably well.

--Sylvain

"Dave S" wrote in message
news
The oil companies havent gone into bankruptcy in droves over 20 odd years,
if anything they have made money hand over fist. They have not increased
their refining capacity because it would decrease their overall PROFIT
margin. Building new refining capacity to "standard" would drive their
incremental cost of production UP, and eat into the stockholders
dividends. But make no mistake, it would still be PROFIT.


Refining capacity for gasoline has increased 3X over the period while no new
refineries were built.

Mike
MU-2